Live data from Hacker News

AGI Is Mathematically Impossible (3): Kolmogorov Complexity

news.ycombinator.com

71–80 of 83 posts

Re: AGI Is Mathematically Impossible (3): Kolmogorov Complexity

#71
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Human intelligence is general intelligence. Just because we don't have direct conscious control over our white blood cells or pancreas does not mean we don't have general intelligence. We may not control them, but we have the ability to figure out how they work. Our intelligence is general in the sense we can understand body functions, or invent calculus, or develop relativity, or any unlistable number of other thing…

I agree with you LLMs are not intelligent. But in this world, in this universe, there are lots of problems to solve. Humans understand these problems more than any other organism or machine we know of, but we are not general. The most we can say is we are the most general. There are far too many problem domains that are beyond the capability of humans to solve to call human intelligence general intelligence. The panc…

> There are far too many problem domains that are beyond the capability of humans to solve to call human intelligence general intelligence.

I'm curious about this. Is that simply not a limitation of our current knowledgebase? That is, as we figure out more about reality, we will eventually conquer those domains as well.

Or do you mean there are domains that are provably beyond the structural capability of our brains? For instance, abstract things like higher-dimensional geometry or number theory which is hard for people to visualize "natively" in their brains. Yet people regularly solve problems in those types of fields. Sure, we rely on tools like computers or pen and paper, but we do solve those problems.

Similarly, take your point about pancreas: sure, our brains cannot do the things it does, that is simply due to lack of the requisite "actuators" connecting our brains to the organ, an artifact of our evolution. But we do understand a lot of the biological mechanisms involved in its operation, enough to treat related problems, again through "tools" like medication and surgery. As we learn more about how they work, that increasingly becomes a problem domain our brains are "capable of solving."

As such, I don't see how these examples show that the brain is not "generally intelligent", unless you exclude tool use, which to me seems like incorrectly conflating cognition and action.

Re: AGI Is Mathematically Impossible (3): Kolmogorov Complexity

#72
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"artificial" literally means "man-made". It does not imply anything about how the created thing works, and whether or not it is different from the corresponding natural equivalent.

I am replying to "How does your brain do it then?" So I guess we agree. You should take it up with OP.

OP's point is that given that the brain does it, and given that it is possible in principle to simulate the brain (even if we don't know how yet), the result of such a simulation would necessarily be "AGI", disproving the original claim that "AGI is mathematically impossible".

Re: AGI Is Mathematically Impossible (3): Kolmogorov Complexity

#73
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Human intelligence is general intelligence. Just because we don't have direct conscious control over our white blood cells or pancreas does not mean we don't have general intelligence. We may not control them, but we have the ability to figure out how they work. Our intelligence is general in the sense we can understand body functions, or invent calculus, or develop relativity, or any unlistable number of other thing…

I agree with you LLMs are not intelligent. But in this world, in this universe, there are lots of problems to solve. Humans understand these problems more than any other organism or machine we know of, but we are not general. The most we can say is we are the most general. There are far too many problem domains that are beyond the capability of humans to solve to call human intelligence general intelligence. The panc…

Control does equal understanding. The pancreas may control its problem domain, but its not cognition any more than a circuit breaker thinks about cutting off power when the current gets too high, or a motion sensor thinks about opening a door when a person comes close. These are example of control not intelligence. We have no direct control over what happens inside the sun, but that doesn't stop us from developing an understanding of how those fusion processes work.

Re: AGI Is Mathematically Impossible (3): Kolmogorov Complexity

#74
post #71
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you LLMs are not intelligent. But in this world, in this universe, there are lots of problems to solve. Humans understand these problems more than any other organism or machine we know of, but we are not general. The most we can say is we are the most general. There are far too many problem domains that are beyond the capability of humans to solve to call human intelligence general intelligence. The panc…

> There are far too many problem domains that are beyond the capability of humans to solve to call human intelligence general intelligence. I'm curious about this. Is that simply not a limitation of our current knowledgebase? That is, as we figure out more about reality, we will eventually conquer those domains as well. Or do you mean there are domains that are provably beyond the structural capability of our brains?…

I'm leaning "no" and "yes, for what we know so far" to your questions.

I think tools are fine depending on how you define a tool and its relationship to human intelligence. If we build an artificial pancreas that learns about the body its sitting in and is able to function just as well as a natural pancreas would we say humans solved this problem? In some sense because humans built the machine. But not in another sense because humans are not the machine. Just like we say "AlphaZero beat the world's best human chess player". We don't say usually say "the humans who designed AlphaZero beat the world's best chess player". Did the humans who designed AlphaZero master chess? Not necessarily.

My argument is that there are examples of cognition that we know the human brain currently doesn't operate in. Are these learnable by the human brain? We don't know yet so we can't say the human brain is completely general.

As I type this and as you read this our bodies are constantly rebuilding themselves. Maybe if you connect the appropriate actuators we can do the same thing with our conscious minds? I highly doubt it due to the nature of the problem and how inefficient the brain would be in solving this sort of problem. It likely wouldn't work, but it's too far for me to say "rovably beyond the structural capability of our brains". I'll just say "I'm very pleased I don't have to do that right now". Developing a living organism, either starting from a single cell or from a fully grown adult, in real time in the real world is a very difficult problem to solve and the human brain would be terribly inefficient at it.

These are just my opinions.

Re: AGI Is Mathematically Impossible (3): Kolmogorov Complexity

#75

AGI Is Mathematically Impossible Unless you believe in magic, the human brain proves that human level general intelligence is possible in our physical universe, running on a system based on the laws of said physical universe. Given that, there's no particular reason to think that "what the brain does" OR a reasonably close approximation, can't be done on another "system based on the laws of our physical universe." Al…

> …the human brain proves that human level general intelligence is possible in our physical universe, running on a system based on the laws of said physical universe.

This poster didn't understand this response last time this was raised: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44349818

Re: AGI Is Mathematically Impossible (3): Kolmogorov Complexity

#76
Hey all, apologies for the delayed response. I was on a flight, then had guests, then had to make some rapid decisions involving actual real-world complexity (the kind that is not easily tokenized).

I’ve now had time to read through the thread properly, and I appreciate the range of engagement—even the sharp-edged stuff. Below, I’ve gathered a set of structured responses to the main critique clusters that came up.

Re: AGI Is Mathematically Impossible (3): Kolmogorov Complexity

#77

Hey all, apologies for the delayed response. I was on a flight, then had guests, then had to make some rapid decisions involving actual real-world complexity (the kind that is not easily tokenized). I’ve now had time to read through the thread properly, and I appreciate the range of engagement—even the sharp-edged stuff. Below, I’ve gathered a set of structured responses to the main critique clusters that came up.

1. On “The brain obeys physics, physics is computable—so AGI must be possible”

This is the classical foundational syllogism of computationalism. In short:

   1.The brain obeys the laws of physics.
   2.The laws of physics are (in principle) computable.
   3.Therefore, the brain is computable.
   4.Therefore, human-level general intelligence is computable, and AGI is  
     inevitable and a question of time, power and compute.
This seems elegant, tidy, logically sound. And: it is patently false — at step 3… And this common mistake is not technical, but categorical: Simulating a system’s physical behavior is not the same as instantiating its cognitive function.

The flaw is in the logic — it’s nothing less than a category error. The logic breaks exactly where category boundaries are crossed without checking if the concept still applies. That by no means inference, this is mere wishful thinking in formalwear. It happens when you confuse simulating a system with being the system. It’s in the jump from simulation to instantiation.

Yes, we can simulate water. -> No, the simulation isn’t wet.

Yes, I can “simulate” a fridge. ->But if I put a beer in myself, and the beer doesn’t come out cold after some time,then what we’ve built is a metaphor with a user interface, not a cognitive peer.

And yes: we can simulate Einstein discovering special relativity. -> But only after he’s already done it. We can tokenize the insight, replay the math, even predict the citation graph. But that’s not general intelligence, that’s a historical reenactment, starring a transformer with a good memory.

Einstein didn’t run inference over a well-formed symbol set. He changed the set, reframed the problem from within the ambiguity. And that is not algorithmic recursion, is it? Nope… That’s cognition at the edge of structure.

If your model can only simulate the answer after history has solved it, then congratulations: you’ve built a cognitive historian, not a general intelligence.

Re: AGI Is Mathematically Impossible (3): Kolmogorov Complexity

#78

Hey all, apologies for the delayed response. I was on a flight, then had guests, then had to make some rapid decisions involving actual real-world complexity (the kind that is not easily tokenized). I’ve now had time to read through the thread properly, and I appreciate the range of engagement—even the sharp-edged stuff. Below, I’ve gathered a set of structured responses to the main critique clusters that came up.

2. On “This is just philosophy with no testability”

Yes, the paper is also philosophical. But not in the hand-wavy, incense-burning sense that’s being implied. It makes a formal claim, in the tradition of Gödel, Rice, and Chaitin: Certain classes of problems are structurally undecidable by any algorithmic system.

You don’t need empirical falsification to verify this. You need mathematical framing. Period.

Just as the halting problem isn’t “testable” but still defines what computers can and can’t do, the Infinite Choice Barrier defines what intelligent systems cannot infer within finite symbolic closure.

These are not performance limitations. They are limits of principle.

Re: AGI Is Mathematically Impossible (3): Kolmogorov Complexity

#79

Hey all, apologies for the delayed response. I was on a flight, then had guests, then had to make some rapid decisions involving actual real-world complexity (the kind that is not easily tokenized). I’ve now had time to read through the thread properly, and I appreciate the range of engagement—even the sharp-edged stuff. Below, I’ve gathered a set of structured responses to the main critique clusters that came up.

3. On “He redefines AGI to make his result inevitable”

Sure. I redefined AGI. By using… …the definition from OpenAI, DeepMind, Anthropic, IBM, Goertzel, and Hutter.

So unless those are now fringe newsletters, the definition stands:

- A general-purpose system that autonomously solves a wide range of human-level problems, with competence equivalent to or greater than human performance -

If that’s the target, the contradiction is structural: No symbolic system can operate stably in the kinds of semantic drift, ambiguity, or frame collapse that general intelligence actually requires. So if you think I smuggled in a trap, check your own luggage because the industry packed it for me.

Re: AGI Is Mathematically Impossible (3): Kolmogorov Complexity

#80

Hey all, apologies for the delayed response. I was on a flight, then had guests, then had to make some rapid decisions involving actual real-world complexity (the kind that is not easily tokenized). I’ve now had time to read through the thread properly, and I appreciate the range of engagement—even the sharp-edged stuff. Below, I’ve gathered a set of structured responses to the main critique clusters that came up.

4. On “This is just the No Free Lunch Theorem again”

Well … not quite. The No Free Lunch theorem says no optimizer is universally better across all functions. That’s an averaging result.

But this paper is not at all about average-case optimization. It’s about specific classes of problems—social ambiguity, paradigm shifts, semantic recursion—where: a)The tail exponent alpha is = or no mean exists, b) Kolmogorov complexity is incompressible, and c) the symbol space lacks the needed abstraction

In these spaces, learning collapses not due to lack of training, but due to structural divergence. Entropy grows with depth. More data doesn’t help. It makes it worse.

That is what “IOpenER” means: Information Opens, Entropy Rises.

It is NOT a theorem about COST… rather a structure about meaning. What exactly is so hard to understand about this?

Post reply on HN