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LLM Inevitabilism

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Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#311

Post by keiferski »

guelo wrote: post #298
keiferski wrote: post #107

One of the negative consequences of the “modern secular age” is that many very intelligent, thoughtful people feel justified in brushing away millennia of philosophical and religious thought because they deem it outdated or no longer relevant. (The book A Secular Age is a great read on this, btw, I think I’ve recommended it here on HN at least half a dozen times.) And so a result of this is that they fail to notice t…

Sorry I don't buy your argument. (First I disagree with A Secular Age 's thesis that secularism is a new force. Christian and Muslim churches were jailing and killing nonbelievers from the beginning. People weren't dumber than we are today, all the absurdity and self-serving hypocrisy that turns a lot of people off to authoritarian religion were as evident to them as they are to us.) The idea is not that AI is on a p…

That isn’t the argument of the book, so I don’t think you actually read it, or even the Wikipedia page?

The rest of your comment doesn’t really seem related to my argument at all. I didn’t say technological process stops or slows down, I pointed out how the thought patterns are often the same across time, and the inability and unwillingness to recognize this is psychologically lazy, to over simplify. And there are indeed examples of technological acceleration or dispersal which was deliberately curtailed – especially with weapons.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#312

Post by pjc50 »

com2kid wrote: post #195
oblio wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is: what is the steady state? We kind of knew it for the internet and we basically figured it out early (even if we knew it was going to take a long time to happen due to generational inertia - see the death of newspapers). For LLMs it looks a lot like deindustrialization. Aka pain and suffering for a lot of people.

Computers ruined entry level jobs for a lot of people. Heck Outlook and PowerPoint put a lot of people out of work. Personal secretary used to be a solid reliable job for many women. Art teams used to exist to make real life presentations on actual paper. Large companies had their own private libraries and librarians to fetch documents. Arguably we already saw some of the socially destabilizing impacts of computers,…

100% is an asymptotic goal, because someone still has to do the maintenance. But grain is probably closest, along with maize and soybeans. Staple crops, huge farms, single guy in a tractor, and the monotonous driving is already being automated away too. Leaving the role of the human to arguing with John Deere over right to repair.

Soft fruit is probably furthest away. That depends on huge armies of immigrant pickers.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#313

Post by tuyiown »

mg wrote: post #70

In the 90s a friend told me about the internet. And that he knows someone who is in a university and has access to it and can show us. An hour later, we were sitting in front of a computer in that university and watched his friend surfing the web. Clicking on links, receiving pages of text. Faster than one could read. In a nice layout. Even with images. And links to other pages. We were shocked. No printing, no shipp…

Inevitable, but for a very narrow specific use case irrelevant for most the humankind, hardly comparable to internet and the web.

It's pretty clear that there are many specific uses cases where LLMs shine. It's the path from general use (ask it anything) to unidentified specific use case (anything identified and addressed correctly) that is very unproven to happen without some kind of pre-existing expertise.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#314

Post by eternauta3k »

mg wrote: post #70

In the 90s a friend told me about the internet. And that he knows someone who is in a university and has access to it and can show us. An hour later, we were sitting in front of a computer in that university and watched his friend surfing the web. Clicking on links, receiving pages of text. Faster than one could read. In a nice layout. Even with images. And links to other pages. We were shocked. No printing, no shipp…

This proves too much. By this argument, libertarian governments are inevitable because it's so much more productive.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#316

Post by stiray »

mg wrote: post #70

In the 90s a friend told me about the internet. And that he knows someone who is in a university and has access to it and can show us. An hour later, we were sitting in front of a computer in that university and watched his friend surfing the web. Clicking on links, receiving pages of text. Faster than one could read. In a nice layout. Even with images. And links to other pages. We were shocked. No printing, no shipp…

Are you sure, that the code works correctly? ;)

Now, imagine, what you would do, if you never learned to read the code.

As you were always using only AI.

Anyway, coding is much simpler and easier than reading someone else's code. And I rather code it myself than spend time to actually read and study what AI has outputted. As at the end, I need to know that code works.

---

At one point, my former boss was explaining to me, how they were hired by some plane making company, to improve their firmware for controlling rear flaps. They have found some float problem and were flying to meeting, to explain what the issue was. (edit:) While flying, they figured out that they are flying with plane having that exact firmware.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#317

Post by moffkalast »

lsy wrote: post #63

I think two things can be true simultaneously: 1. LLMs are a new technology and it's hard to put the genie back in the bottle with that. It's difficult to imagine a future where they don't continue to exist in some form, with all the timesaving benefits and social issues that come with them. 2. Almost three years in, companies investing in LLMs have not yet discovered a business model that justifies the massive expen…

ML models have the good property of only requiring investment once and can then be used till the end of history or until something better replaces them.

Granted the initial investment is immense, and the results are not guaranteed which makes it risky, but it's like building a dam or a bridge. Being in the age where bridge technology evolves massively on a weekly basis is a recipe for being wasteful if you keep starting a new megaproject every other month though. The R&D phase for just about anything always results in a lot of waste. The Apollo programme wasn't profitable either, but without it we wouldn't have the knowledge for modern launch vehicles to be either. Or to even exist.

I'm pretty sure one day we'll have an LLM/LMM/VLA/etc. that's so good that pretraining a new one will seem pointless, and that'll finally be the time we get to (as a society) reap the benefits of our collective investment in the tech. The profitability of a single technology demonstrator model (which is what all current models are) is immaterial from that standpoint.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#318

Post by polotics »

benreesman wrote: post #241
mg wrote: post #70

In the 90s a friend told me about the internet. And that he knows someone who is in a university and has access to it and can show us. An hour later, we were sitting in front of a computer in that university and watched his friend surfing the web. Clicking on links, receiving pages of text. Faster than one could read. In a nice layout. Even with images. And links to other pages. We were shocked. No printing, no shipp…

As someone who has historically been very much an LLM inevitabalism skeptic and has recently decided that we've crossed the breakeven point with indiscriminant use of Opus 4, eh, it's precisely because we're in late LLM === AGI hype world. They're actually cutting the shit on "this can do anything, and in a month, twice that!". This thing is crazy operator aligned, wildly SFT'd on curated codebases, and running a TTF…

Can you translate "SFT'd" and "TTFT" and "TESCREAL" for the less clued-in members of the audience? On "one ine itabalism" I just gave up.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#319

Post by ben_w »

bambax wrote: post #256
mg wrote: post #70

In the 90s a friend told me about the internet. And that he knows someone who is in a university and has access to it and can show us. An hour later, we were sitting in front of a computer in that university and watched his friend surfing the web. Clicking on links, receiving pages of text. Faster than one could read. In a nice layout. Even with images. And links to other pages. We were shocked. No printing, no shipp…

The problem with LLM is when they're used for creativity or for thinking. Just because LLMs are indeed useful in some (even many!) context, including coding, esp. to either get something started, or, like in your example, to transcode an existing code base to another platform, doesn't mean they will change everything . It doesn't mean “AI is the new electricity.” (actual quote from Andrew Ng in the post). More like A…

While I'd agree with your first line:

> The problem with LLM is when they're used for creativity or for thinking.

And while I also agree that it's currently closer to "AI is the new VBA" because of the current domain in which consumer AI* is most useful.

Despite that, I'd also aver that being useful in simply "many" contexts will make AI "the new electricity”. Electricity itself is (or recently was) only about 15% of global primary power, about 3 TW out of about 20 TW: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_supply_and_consum...

Are LLMs 15% of all labour? Not just coding, but overall? No. The economic impact would be directly noticeable if it was that much.

Currently though, I agree. New VBA. Or new smartphone, in that we ~all have and use them, while society as a whole simultaneously cringes a bit at this.

* Narrower AI such as AlphaFold etc. would, in this analogy, be more like a Steam Age factory which had a massive custom steam engine in the middle distributing motive power to the equipment directly: it's fine at what it does, but you have to make it specifically for your goal and can't easily adapt it for something else later.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#320

Post by Gigachad »

gonzric1 wrote: post #141
bgwalter wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Smartphones are different. People really wanted them since the relatively primitive Nokia Communicator. "AI" was introduced as an impressive parlor trick. People like to play around, so it quickly got popular. Then companies started force-feeding it by integrating it into every existing product, including the gamification and bureaucratization of programming. Most people except for the gamers and plagiarists don't wa…

Chatgpt Has 800 million weekly active users. That's roughly 10% of the planet. I get that it's not the panacea some people want us to believe it is, but you don't have to deny reality just because you don't like it.

Sure, because it's free. I doubt most users of LLMs would want to even pay $1/month for them.
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