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LLM Inevitabilism

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Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#81

Post by sandspar »

mg wrote: post #70

In the 90s a friend told me about the internet. And that he knows someone who is in a university and has access to it and can show us. An hour later, we were sitting in front of a computer in that university and watched his friend surfing the web. Clicking on links, receiving pages of text. Faster than one could read. In a nice layout. Even with images. And links to other pages. We were shocked. No printing, no shipp…

Have you kept in touch with your friend who showed you the internet? If so, what does he think about AI?

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#82

Post by oblio »

mg wrote: post #70

In the 90s a friend told me about the internet. And that he knows someone who is in a university and has access to it and can show us. An hour later, we were sitting in front of a computer in that university and watched his friend surfing the web. Clicking on links, receiving pages of text. Faster than one could read. In a nice layout. Even with images. And links to other pages. We were shocked. No printing, no shipp…

The thing is: what is the steady state?

We kind of knew it for the internet and we basically figured it out early (even if we knew it was going to take a long time to happen due to generational inertia - see the death of newspapers).

For LLMs it looks a lot like deindustrialization. Aka pain and suffering for a lot of people.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#83

Post by scubbo »

mg wrote: post #70

In the 90s a friend told me about the internet. And that he knows someone who is in a university and has access to it and can show us. An hour later, we were sitting in front of a computer in that university and watched his friend surfing the web. Clicking on links, receiving pages of text. Faster than one could read. In a nice layout. Even with images. And links to other pages. We were shocked. No printing, no shipp…

> Hours of time saved

Come back in a week and update us on how long you've spent debugging all the ways that the code was broken that you didn't notice in those 15 minutes.

Usually I don't nitpick spelling, but "mimnutes" and "stylisitic" are somewhat ironic here - small correct-looking errors get glossed over by human quality-checkers, but can lead to genuine issues when parsed as code. A key difference between your two examples is that the failure-cases of an HTML download are visible and treated-as-such, not presented as successes; you don't have to babysit the machine to make sure it's doing the right thing.

EDIT: plus, everything that sibling comments pointed out; that, even if AI tools _do_ work perfectly (they don't, and never will), they'll still do harm when "working-as-intended" - to critical thinking, to trust in truth and reporting, to artistic creation, to consolidation of wealth and capital.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#84

Post by nperez »

It's inevitable because it's here. LLMs aren't the "future" anymore, they're the present. They're unseating Google as the SOTA method of finding information on the internet. People have been trying to do that for decades. The future probably holds even bigger things, but even if it plateaus for a while, showing real ability to defeat traditional search is a crazy start and just one example.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#85

Post by sandspar »

I'm looking forward to meeting my ChatGPT. I believe that one day I will perceive it looking back at me. I expect that by then it may have read this very comment. If so, hello!

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#86

Post by positron26 »

godelski wrote: post #9
NBJack wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, this is exactly the technique for arguing that the blog mentions. Remember the revolutionary, seemingly inevitable tech that was poised to rewrite how humans thought about transportation? The incredible amounts of hype, the secretive meetings disclosing the device, etc.? That turned out to be the self-balancing scooter known as a Segway?

I think about the Segway a lot. It's a good example. Man, what a wild time. Everyone was so excited and it was held in mystery for so long. People had tried it in secret and raved about it on television. Then... they showed it... and... well... I got to try one once. It was very underwhelming...

I'm going to hold onto the Segway as an actual instance of hype the next time someone calls LLMs "hype".

LLMs have hundreds of millions of users. I just can't stress how insane this was. This wasn't built on the back of Facebook or Instagram's distribution like Threads. The internet consumer has never so readily embraced something so fast.

Calling LLMs "hype" is an example of cope, judging facts based on what is hoped to be true even in the face of overwhelming evidence or even self-evident imminence to the contrary.

I know people calling "hype" are motivated by something. Maybe it is a desire to contain the inevitable harm of any huge rollout or to slow down the disruption. Maybe it's simply the egotistical instinct to be contrarian and harvest karma while we can still feign to be debating shadows on the wall. I just want to be up front. It's not hype. Few people calling "hype" can believe that this is hype and anyone who does believes it simply isn't credible. That won't stop people from jockeying to protect their interests, hoping that some intersubjective truth we manufacture together will work in their favor, but my lord is the "hype" bandwagon being dishonest these days.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#87

Post by withinboredom »

deanCommie wrote: post #79
mg wrote: post #70

In the 90s a friend told me about the internet. And that he knows someone who is in a university and has access to it and can show us. An hour later, we were sitting in front of a computer in that university and watched his friend surfing the web. Clicking on links, receiving pages of text. Faster than one could read. In a nice layout. Even with images. And links to other pages. We were shocked. No printing, no shipp…

the issue isn't the capabilities of AI. It's how it will be used maliciously and change our society irrevocably. Not from saving developers hours of work. But from making truth even more subjective and at the whims of the powerful. And from devaluing and stagnating art even further. And from sabotaging the critical thinking capabilities of our youths. All technology comes with tradeoffs. The internet you describe als…

I was having a discussion with someone, they said, “let me ask ChatGPT. If it says it’s true, it must be true.”

I also worked with a fellow manager who used to tell the engineers they were wrong because ChatGPT said so. That one was actually entertaining to watch. The coming humbling of that manager was so satisfying.

People put a lot of stake in what it says, not realizing it isn’t always right.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#88

Post by mbgerring »

dheera wrote: post #78
mbgerring wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve tried to use AI for “real work” a handful of times and have mostly come away disappointed, unimpressed, or annoyed that I wasted my time. Given the absolutely insane hard resource requirements for these systems that are kind of useful, sometimes, in very limited contexts, I don’t believe its adoption is inevitable. Maybe one of the reasons for that is that I work in the energy industry and broadly in climate tec…

That's how people probably felt about the first cars, the first laptops, the first . People like you grumbled when their early car broke down in the middle of a dirt road in the boondocks and they had to eat grass and shoot rabbits until the next help arrived. "My horse wouldn't have broken down", they said. Technologies mature over time.

We actually don’t know whether or not meaningful performance gains with LLMs are available using current approaches, and we do know that there are hard physical limits to electricity generation. Yes, technologies mature over time. The history of most AI approaches since the 60s is a big breakthrough followed by diminishing returns. I have not seen any credible argument that this time is different.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#89

Post by mtlmtlmtlmtl »

Animats wrote: post #46

There may be an "LLM Winter" as people discover that LLMs can't be trusted to do anything. Look for frantic efforts by companies to offload responsibility for LLM mistakes onto consumers. We've got to have something that has solid "I don't know" and "I don't know how to do this" outputs. We're starting to see reports of LLM usage having negative value for programmers, even though they think it's helping. Too much eff…

Yeah, I can't wait for this slop generation hype circlejerk to end either. But in terms of being used by people who don't care about quality, like scammers, spammers, blogspam grifters, people trying to affect elections by poisoning the narrative, people shitting out crappy phone apps, videos, music, "art" to grift some ad revenue, gen AI is already the perfect product. Once the people who do care wake up and realise gen AI is basically useless to them, the internet will already be dead, we'll be in a post-truth, post-art, post-skill, post-democracy world and the only people whose lives will have meaningfully improved are some billionaires in california who added some billions to their net worth.

It's so depressing to watch so many smart people spend their considerable talents on the generation of utter garbage and the erosion of the social fabric of society.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#90

Post by rafaelmn »

scubbo wrote: post #83
mg wrote: post #70

In the 90s a friend told me about the internet. And that he knows someone who is in a university and has access to it and can show us. An hour later, we were sitting in front of a computer in that university and watched his friend surfing the web. Clicking on links, receiving pages of text. Faster than one could read. In a nice layout. Even with images. And links to other pages. We were shocked. No printing, no shipp…

> Hours of time saved Come back in a week and update us on how long you've spent debugging all the ways that the code was broken that you didn't notice in those 15 minutes. Usually I don't nitpick spelling, but "mimnutes" and "stylisitic" are somewhat ironic here - small correct-looking errors get glossed over by human quality-checkers, but can lead to genuine issues when parsed as code. A key difference between your…

>Come back in a week and update us on how long you've spent debugging all the ways that the code was broken that you didn't notice in those 15 minutes.

This so much - can't believe how much of these "I am not even reading the LLM code anymore it is that good" comments I am reading. Either you are all shit programmers or your "You are an expert senior software developer" prompts are hitting the LLM harder. Because I'm here LLMing as much as the next guy, hoping it will take the work away - but as soon as I start being lazy, jumping over the code and letting it take the wheel it starts falling apart and I start getting bug reports. And the worst part is - it's the code "I wrote" (according to git blame), but I'm reading it for the first time as well and reading it with attention to detail reveals its shit.

So not sure what models you guys are getting served - especially the OpenAI stuff for coding, but I'm just not getting there. What is the expert prompt sauce I am missing here ?

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