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AI slows down open source developers. Peter Naur can teach us why

johnwhiles.com

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Re: AI slows down open source developers. Peter Naur can teach us why

#31
Only one developer in this study had more than 50h of Cursor experience, including time spent using Cursor during the study. That one developer saw a 25% speed improvement.

Everyone else was an absolute Cursor beginner with barely any Cursor experience. I don't find it surprising that using tools they're unfamiliar with slows software engineers down.

I don't think this study can be used to reach any sort of conclusion on use of AI and development speed.

Re: AI slows down open source developers. Peter Naur can teach us why

#33

I directionally disagree with this: ``` It's common for engineers to end up working on projects which they don't have an accurate mental model of. Projects built by people who have long since left the company for pastures new. It's equally common for developers to work in environments where little value is placed on understanding systems, but a lot of value is placed on quickly delivering changes that mostly work. In…

Just anecdotally - I think your reason for disagreeing is a valid statement, but not a valid counterpoint to the argument being made. So > Reason: you cannot evaluate the work accurately if you have no mental model. If there's a bug given the systems unwritten assumptions you may not catch it. This is completely correct. It's a very fair statement. The problem is that a developer coming into a large legacy project is…

> I've found that asking AI tools to generate a changeset in this case is actually a pretty solid way of starting to learn the mental model.

This. Leveraging the AI to start to develop the mental model is an advantage. But, using the AI is a non-trivial skill set that needs to be learned. Skepticism of what it's saying is important. AI can be really useful just like a 747 can be useful, but you don't want someone picked off the street at random flying it.

Re: AI slows down open source developers. Peter Naur can teach us why

#34
Those of current generation students who have access to ai might become slow over time. Because when things are not readily available then they have to struggle and work harder in that process, at that time I thing human a lot of secondary things ! Now when everything is easily available especially knowledge without knowing how to struggle with basics. It will eventually make kids dumb. But can be opposite also. Eventually even I become slow even I keep on using chat gpt or gemini.

Re: AI slows down open source developers. Peter Naur can teach us why

#35

All these studies that show "AI makes developers x% more/less productive" are predicated on the idea that developer "productivity" can be usefully captured in a single objectively measurable number. Just one problem with that...

Thanks for the feedback! I strongly agree this is not the only measure of developer productivity -- but it's certainly one of them. I think this measure as speaks very directly to how _many_ developers (myself included) understand the impact of AI tools on their own work currently (e.g. just speeding up implementation speed).

(The SPACE [1] framework is a pretty overview of considerations here; I agree with a lot of it, although I'll note that METR [2] has different motivations for studying developer productivity than Microsoft does.)

[1] https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3454122.3454124

[2] https://metr.org/about

Re: AI slows down open source developers. Peter Naur can teach us why

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps; but this is a developer's own output with an AI tool, compared against their own historical output when they didn't use it. Apparently, the average developer (read: quite possibly most people here) can't even hit the broadside of a barn in estimating their own productivity.

That this is generally a problem, and was established as such before software development existed (the big thing people usually point to is a RAND corp from the 1940s) and is the whole motivation for Wideband Delphi estimation methods invented shortly afterwards (of which agile "planning poker" is simply a particular more recent realization) for forward estimation, and why lean methods center on using a plan-do-check…

But this is still regarding forward estimating of future work, whereas GP is talking about gauging actual, past work done. The problems with forward estimation are indeed widely known, but I doubt most people realize that they are so bad at even knowing how productive they were.

Re: AI slows down open source developers. Peter Naur can teach us why

#37
My main two attempts at using an “agentic” coding workflow were trying to incorporate an Outlook COM interface into my rust code base and to streamline an existing abstract windows API interaction to avoid copying memory a couple of times. Both wasted tremendous amounts of time and were ultimately abandoned leaving me only slightly more educated about windows development. They make great autocompletion engines but I just cannot see them being useful in my project otherwise.

Re: AI slows down open source developers. Peter Naur can teach us why

#38

Only one developer in this study had more than 50h of Cursor experience, including time spent using Cursor during the study. That one developer saw a 25% speed improvement. Everyone else was an absolute Cursor beginner with barely any Cursor experience. I don't find it surprising that using tools they're unfamiliar with slows software engineers down. I don't think this study can be used to reach any sort of conclusio…

This is exactly my same take. Any tool an engineer is inexperienced with will slow them down. AI is no different.

Re: AI slows down open source developers. Peter Naur can teach us why

#39

Only one developer in this study had more than 50h of Cursor experience, including time spent using Cursor during the study. That one developer saw a 25% speed improvement. Everyone else was an absolute Cursor beginner with barely any Cursor experience. I don't find it surprising that using tools they're unfamiliar with slows software engineers down. I don't think this study can be used to reach any sort of conclusio…

Hey, thanks for digging into the details here! Copying a relevant comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44523638) from the other thread on the paper, in case it's help on this point.

1. Some prior studies that find speedup do so with developers that have similar (or less!) experience with the tools they use. In other words, the "steep learning curve" theory doesn't differentially explain our results vs. other results.

2. Prior to the study, 90+% of developers had reasonable experience prompting LLMs. Before we found slowdown, this was the only concern that most external reviewers had about experience was about prompting -- as prompting was considered the primary skill. In general, the standard wisdom was/is Cursor is very easy to pick up if you're used to VSCode, which most developers used prior to the study.

3. Imagine all these developers had a TON of AI experience. One thing this might do is make them worse programmers when not using AI (relatable, at least for me), which in turn would raise the speedup we find (but not because AI was better, but just because with AI is much worse). In other words, we're sorta in between a rock and a hard place here -- it's just plain hard to figure out what the right baseline should be!

4. We shared information on developer prior experience with expert forecasters. Even with this information, forecasters were still dramatically over-optimistic about speedup.

5. As you say, it's totally possible that there is a long-tail of skills to using these tools -- things you only pick up and realize after hundreds of hours of usage. Our study doesn't really speak to this. I'd be excited for future literature to explore this more.

In general, these results being surprising makes it easy to read the paper, find one factor that resonates, and conclude "ah, this one factor probably just explains slowdown." My guess: there is no one factor -- there's a bunch of factors that contribute to this result -- at least 5 seem likely, and at least 9 we can't rule out (see the factors table on page 11).

I'll also note that one really important takeaway -- that developer self-reports after using AI are overoptimistic to the point of being on the wrong side of speedup/slowdown -- isn't a function of which tool they use. The need for robust, on-the-ground measurements to accurately judge productivity gains is a key takeaway here for me!

(You can see a lot more detail in section C.2.7 of the paper ("Below-average use of AI tools") -- where we explore the points here in more detail.)

Re: AI slows down open source developers. Peter Naur can teach us why

#40

Only one developer in this study had more than 50h of Cursor experience, including time spent using Cursor during the study. That one developer saw a 25% speed improvement. Everyone else was an absolute Cursor beginner with barely any Cursor experience. I don't find it surprising that using tools they're unfamiliar with slows software engineers down. I don't think this study can be used to reach any sort of conclusio…

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