Preliminary report into Air India crash released • Hacker News Board

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#591

Post by raverbashing » Sat, Jul 12, 2025, 2:06 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #531

raverbashing wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not disagreeing with you I think this was manually done But here's the thing a "near zero chance" when we are talking about an actual event changes the math Maybe there's a combination of vibration and manufacturing defect or assembly fault or "hammer this until it works" that can cause the switches to flip. Very unlikely? Yes. Still close to 0% but much more likely in the scenario of an accident Of course AAIB/N…

We could also suggest that aliens in the cockpit did it — about the same probability. Two switches, on independent circuits, both failing within one second of each other in the exact same way?

I love when people try to sound smart but instead they just prove their ignorance

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#592

Post by interestica » Sat, Jul 12, 2025, 2:06 PM UTC

callmeal wrote: post #445

bigtones wrote: post #151

Each of the fuel switches on the 787 is equipped with a locking mechanism that is supposed to prevent accidental movement, experts said. To turn the fuel supply on, the switch must be pulled outward and then moved to a “RUN” position, where it is released and settles back into a locked position. To turn the fuel supply off, the switch must be pulled outward again, moved to the “CUTOFF” position and then released agai…

Or they could be inadvertently flipped if the "locking" version was not installed: (see the avherald link): >>India's media report that the investigation is NOT focussing on a human action causing the fuel switches to appear in the CUTOFF position, but on a system failure. Service Bulletins by Boeing issued in year 2018 recommending to upgrade the fuel switches to locked versions to prevent inadvertent flip of the sw…

https://ad.easa.europa.eu/blob/NM-18-33.pdf/SIB_NM-18-33_1

> Recommendations The FAA recommends that all owners and operators of the affected airplanes incorporate the following actions at the earliest opportunity: 1) Inspect the locking feature of the fuel control switch to ensure its engagement. While the airplane is on the ground, check whether the fuel control switch can be moved between the two positions without lifting up the switch. If the switch can be moved without lifting it up, the locking feature has been disengaged and the switch should be replaced at the earliest opportunity. 2) For Boeing Model 737-700, -700C, -800, and -900ER series airplanes and Boeing Model 737- 8 and -9 airplanes delivered with a fuel control switch having P/N 766AT613-3D: Replace the fuel control switch with a switch having P/N 766AT614-3D, which includes an improved locking feature.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#593

Post by bonoboTP » Sat, Jul 12, 2025, 2:09 PM UTC

dd_xplore wrote: post #574

Most importantly it's extremely problematic that BBC is pushing the pilot error angle subtly! This is a preliminary report! No news organization should spread opinion pieces based on this. Somehow it feels like Boeing paid BBC to shift the narrative. We should all wait for the final report. Pilot error or Machine fault, either way it's a huge tragedy.

Where did you see that? You say subtle. What does that mean?

It's a fact that there are no recommendations to manufacturers or airlines yet. If they had found anything seriously suspicious they would already issue recommendations as soon as possible, not just in the final report, not even just at the prelim report, but as fast as possible. Grounding planes, forcing maintenance etc. That has not happened.

It's easy to fall in the other direction and jump on the Boeing hate bandwagon. It's become a trendy thing online.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#594

Post by labcomputer » Sat, Jul 12, 2025, 2:09 PM UTC

callmeal wrote: post #445

bigtones wrote: post #151

Each of the fuel switches on the 787 is equipped with a locking mechanism that is supposed to prevent accidental movement, experts said. To turn the fuel supply on, the switch must be pulled outward and then moved to a “RUN” position, where it is released and settles back into a locked position. To turn the fuel supply off, the switch must be pulled outward again, moved to the “CUTOFF” position and then released agai…

Or they could be inadvertently flipped if the "locking" version was not installed: (see the avherald link): >>India's media report that the investigation is NOT focussing on a human action causing the fuel switches to appear in the CUTOFF position, but on a system failure. Service Bulletins by Boeing issued in year 2018 recommending to upgrade the fuel switches to locked versions to prevent inadvertent flip of the sw…

I’m sorry to tell you this, but that appears to be an AI hallucination.

https://www.regulations.gov/document/FAA-2021-0273-0013

None of the attachments reference the fuel cutoff switches.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#595

Post by interestica » Sat, Jul 12, 2025, 2:09 PM UTC

cpgxiii wrote: post #281

bob1029 wrote: post #18

> The EGT was observed to be rising for both engines indicating relight. Engine 1’s core deceleration stopped, reversed and started to progress to recovery. Engine 2 was able to relight but could not arrest core speed deceleration and re-introduced fuel repeatedly to increase core speed acceleration and recovery. I know it's probably not worth the hazmat tradeoff for such a rare event, but the F-16 has an EPU powered…

The F-16 EPU is to keep the flight controls powered so the plane doesn't immediately become uncontrollable following engine failure. The EPU doesn't provide thrust of any kind. The 787 and nearly every other commercial aircraft with powered flight controls [1] (fly-by-wire or traditional) has emergency power available via RAT and/or APU, and any fly-by-wire aircraft has batteries to keep the flight control computers…

> at which point the aircraft will have "landed" one way or another.

Ah

Also we need more rocket thrust takeoff airplanes.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#596

Post by ExoticPearTree » Sat, Jul 12, 2025, 2:13 PM UTC

leetrout wrote: post #498

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Looks like the engines react very quickly to cut-off so it is not clear whether the question about the cut-off is prompted by a glance to the switches or the feel of the airplane. The workload is pretty high during the takeoff phase. The engines react right away when fuel flow is stopped. The engine displays can have some lag before data is updated. Relighting an engine at low speed is not feasible - most need 230-…

> I would assume the captain The report states the FO was pilot flying.

My bad. I assumed it was the captain since the report says the FO only has a CPL license. And I was a bit surprised he could fly on a comercial airplane with only that kind of license and not an ATPL one.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#597

Post by ExoticPearTree » Sat, Jul 12, 2025, 2:14 PM UTC

tiahura wrote: post #509

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And both pilots deny doing it. > It's difficult to conclude anything other than murder-suicide. You’re trying to prove a negative here. I am not familiar with the 787 operations, but there are a few issues that need to be sorted out first: - altitude when pilots start the after takeoff checklist - if there are any other switches that are operated in tandem in the general vicinity of where the engine cutoff switches…

Have you ever turned your car off when you meant to turn on the windshield wiper?

I turned off my car several times because I forgot I turned it on in the first place. In all fairness, it was always when I was parked.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#598

Post by CPLX » Sat, Jul 12, 2025, 2:15 PM UTC

dd_xplore wrote: post #574

Most importantly it's extremely problematic that BBC is pushing the pilot error angle subtly! This is a preliminary report! No news organization should spread opinion pieces based on this. Somehow it feels like Boeing paid BBC to shift the narrative. We should all wait for the final report. Pilot error or Machine fault, either way it's a huge tragedy.

The report contains significant evidence that one of the pilots switched off the engines.

It doesn’t rule out other options, and it doesn’t explain why they might have done that or if it was inadvertent but it’s still new information, and presenting new important information is what the news is for.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#599

Post by ExoticPearTree » Sat, Jul 12, 2025, 2:16 PM UTC

bobsmooth wrote: post #576

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we’re talking about accidentally pressing buttons it seems we’d have seen incidents before. Well, of course I talk about an accidental touch of the wrong buttons. Flying is very safe, but at the same time, you will never know how many near misses happen daily that don't become accidents.

Actually we do https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_US_aircraft_near-miss_...

Nice. But how about what happened in the cockpit that was never reported? Or something that was not seen by others?

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#600

Post by bonoboTP » Sat, Jul 12, 2025, 2:16 PM UTC

MangoToupe wrote: post #419

maxbond wrote: post #295

I just want to call out that, whatever the facts of this case, pilot heroism is way more common than pilot murder. This is off the top of my head, so don't quote me on the precise details, I'm probably misremembering some things. But a few of my favorite examples: - British Airways 5390: An incorrect repair causes the windshield of a plane to be blown out mid flight. A pilot is nearly sucked out. The head flight atte…

If you're focused on whether or not the pilot cares (or is even alive), you've lost the plot. The point is to keep passengers alive regardless of the pilot. There's no real point to considering what happens if the pilot wants to murder people on board. Of course they will succeed....

The thing is, people always want something to be done. And politicians want to do something. No matter what kind of action it is, someone knifed a kid on the street, we must ban knives of a certain length. A pilot downs a plane while the other leaves the cockpit - we must mandate two pilots always present. Someone hides explosives in his shoe - we must X-ray all shoes of all passengers forever. Etc.

The human brain can't take the idea that yeah an exceedingly rare thing happened and we're not going to do anything, because rare things do happen sometimes. And the medicine can be worse than the disease. We just accept that yeah, despite best efforts, some pilots will be hostile for whatever mental reasons. Not saying that is what happened in this case, but just saying that IF that happened.

We need more tradeoff thinking, instead of do something! thinking.