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Preliminary report into Air India crash released

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#561
post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would anyone be surprised if an accomplished concert pianist played C Bb Bb instead of C E in a piece they had played thousands of times correctly? The only difference here is that the consequences are death instead of mere head shaking. Murder needs more proof than just performing the wrong action. Until then we should apply Hanlon's Razor.

That's a ridiculous analogy. The pilots aren't sitting in front of a uniform set of keys that they need to press in a specific order with a specific timing. The mistake equivalent to what the pilot supposedly did would be if the pianist accidentally stuck a finger up his nose instead of playing the notes or something.

Quite, but the point is that even after doing something correctly a thousand times, someone can make a mistake that seems unbelievable.

The cutoff switches are operated every flight so the muscle memory is there, ready to be triggered at the wrong time.

All we know is that something went wrong in the pilot's head in at least a single moment that caused him to perform a ground action during takeoff.

Depressive murder-suicide is one possible explanation. Altered mental state is another: insomnia, illness, drugs/medications could all explain an extreme brain fart. Perhaps he just had food poisoning? It's India after all.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#562
Three things:- 1) Pilot clearly said I didn't do it. 2) Report talks about the second switch being turned off in a second. 3) Known advisory on switches getting flipped.

If you see these three together, it becomes easy to deduce that based on point 2, switch was not human induced as the actions required take more than a second. Next the third point, advisory was for this exact scenario which played out, though rare but still it shouldn't have been just an advisory, but more than that.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#563
post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes people put cleaning liquid in the fridge. Given a long enough span of time, every possible fuck up eventually will happen.

Because there's no difference in actions needed to do so. A similar mistake is throwing away a useful item while holding onto a piece of trash. The action is the same, it's just the item in question that's different. This is not what happened here at all. The actions needed to activate the fuel cutoff switches are not similar to any other action a pilot would want to make during takeoff.

The form of the action isn’t necessarily what’s stored. They may have memorized something as “fourth action” or some other mnemonic mechanism

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#564
post #392

So what's the status of full self driving airplanes (aka autopilot , or maybe autodriver to avoid the bad connotations)

It's a philosophical matter: even when we have self-driving cars boats and aeroplane a human should always make the final decision.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#565
post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s nowhere near an obvious conclusion. A failure with the locking mechanism or muscle memory confusion are just as likely, and probably other theories I’m not thinking of. More investigation is clearly needed, which is why this is called a preliminary report.

Dual failure of the locking mechanism is extremely unlikely. These are not switches that are regularly used so a muscle memory issue also seems very unlikely (but is still the most likely non-suicide scenario)

These switches are used at the end of literally every flight

The biggest problem with these theorising comment threads is the confidence people who know nothing about flying spout their theories

(I know nothing about flying)

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#566

Video would definitively show whether either pilot moved these switches or if some other mechanism caused the movement. The aviation industry has consistently resisted cockpit video recording despite decades of available technology. The pilot unions argue privacy concerns, but cases like this demonstrate the value it would have. Current audio captured the pilots' denials, but without visual confirmation we may never…

Please provide sources for your claims.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#567
I recall something similar to this happened in the USA in 2023. An off-duty pilot in the cockpit tried to pull that fuel shut-off handle (edit: I'm informed it's a different fuel shut-off mechanism), but was overpowered by the other two:

> "Both pilots then saw Emerson grab on to the red fire handles, also known as the “T-handles,” which are used to extinguish engine fires and shut off all fuel to the engines, potentially turning the plane into a glider, the pilots told federal investigators."

> "“If the T-handle is fully deployed, a valve in the wing closes to shut off fuel to the engine. In this case, the quick reaction of our crew to reset the T-handles ensured engine power was not lost,” Alaska Airlines said in a statement."

> "One pilot struggled with Emerson for about 25 or 30 seconds before the off-duty pilot “quickly settled down,” according to the complaint."

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-10-24/off-duty...

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#568
post #263

The switch had to be operated deliberately, but still a UX fail on a modern aircraft if cutting off fuel to the engines does not result in an audible alert/alarm which both pilots can hear - especially at that altitude.

Are you sure there wasn't an audible alarm?

The switches were re-engaged within 10 seconds so isn't it possible they quickly heard a warning alarm, realised the issue and fixed it? (Of course, not quick enough in this case)

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't put my car into reverse gear while driving down the freeway.

Remember the "surging" incidents where the driver insisted he was stepping on the brake but was actually stepping on the gas?

Remember when the driver pushed nothing but the tesla kept driving or braking?
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