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Bad Actors Are Grooming LLMs to Produce Falsehoods

americansunlight.substack.com

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Re: Bad Actors Are Grooming LLMs to Produce Falsehoods

#81

Post by diggan »

Digit-Al wrote: post #74
diggan wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're saying is certainly an established propaganda strategy of Russia (and others), but what parent is saying is also true, "truth" isn't always black and white, and what is the desired behavior in one country can be the opposite in another. For example, it is the truth that the Golf of Mexico is called the Gulf of America in the US, but Golf of Mexico everywhere else. What is the "correct" truth? Well, there…

No, it's called the Gulf of Mexico everywhere else, not the Golf of Mexico. I'm not falling for your propaganda ;-)

Hah, yeah :) I originally wrote "Golfo de Mexico" but that's obviously the wrong language for HN and instead ended up with a mix between the two, inadvertently creating a new ocean golf resort.

Re: Bad Actors Are Grooming LLMs to Produce Falsehoods

#83

Post by diggan »

strken wrote: post #66
diggan wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're saying is certainly an established propaganda strategy of Russia (and others), but what parent is saying is also true, "truth" isn't always black and white, and what is the desired behavior in one country can be the opposite in another. For example, it is the truth that the Golf of Mexico is called the Gulf of America in the US, but Golf of Mexico everywhere else. What is the "correct" truth? Well, there…

The correct truth is to go to a higher level of abstraction and explain that there's a naming controversy. I get the general point, but I disagree that you have to choose between one of the possibilities instead of explaining what the current state of belief is. This won't eliminate grey areas but it'll sure get us closer than picking a side at random.

> explain that there's a naming controversy

But that also isn't the truth everywhere, it's only a controversy in the US, everyone else is accepting "Gulf of Mexico" as the name.

Re: Bad Actors Are Grooming LLMs to Produce Falsehoods

#84

Post by autoexec »

imiric wrote: post #62
dns_snek wrote: post #9

If actions by these bad actors accelerate the rate at which people lose trust in these systems and lead to the AI bubble popping faster then they have my full support. The entire space is just bad actors complaining about other bad actors while they're collectively ruining the web for everyone, each in their own way.

Before the bubble does pop, which I think is inevitable, there will be many stories like this one, and a lot of people will be scammed, manipulated, and harmed. It might take years until the general consensus is negative about the effects of these tools. All while the wealthy and powerful continue to reap the benefits, while those on slightly lower rungs fight to take their place. And even if the public perception sh…

> It might take years until the general consensus is negative about the effects of these tools.

The only thing I'm seeing offline are people who already think AI is trash, untrustworthy, and harmful, while also occasionally being convenient when the stakes are extremely low (random search results mostly) or as a fun toy ("Look I'm a ghibli character!")

I don't think it'll take long for the masses to sour to AI and the more aggressively it's pushed on them by companies, or the more it negatively impacts their life when someone they depend on and should know better uses it and it screws up the quicker that'll happen.

Re: Bad Actors Are Grooming LLMs to Produce Falsehoods

#85

Post by zer00eyz »

mentalgear wrote: post #41

"Ultimately, the only way forward is better cognition, including systems that can evaluate news sources, understand satire, and so forth. But that will require deeper forms of reasoning, better integrated into the process, and systems sharp enough to fact check to their own outputs. All of which may require a fundamental rethink. In the meantime, systems of naive mimicry and regurgitation, such as the AIs we have now…

> including systems that can evaluate news sources, understand satire, and so forth.

Lets take something that has been in the news recently: https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/investors-snap-gro...

"Nearly 27% of all homes sold in the first three months of the year were bought by investors -- the highest share in at least five years, according to a report by real estate data provider BatchData."

That sounds like a lot... and people are rage baited into yelling about housing and how it's unaffordable. They point their fingers at corporations.

If you go look at the real report it paints a different picture: https://investorpulse1h25.batchdata.io/?mf_ct_campaign=grayt... -- and one that is woefully incomplete because of how the data is aggregated.

Ultimately all that information is pointless because the real underlying trend has been unmovable for 40 something years: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/RSAHORUSQ156S

> every time they unthinkingly repeat propaganda

How do you separate propaganda from perspective, facts from feelings? People are already bad at this, the machines were already well soiled by the data from humans. Truth, in an objective form, is rare and often even it can change.

Re: Bad Actors Are Grooming LLMs to Produce Falsehoods

#86

Post by grishka »

anal_reactor wrote: post #77
dns_snek wrote: post #9

If actions by these bad actors accelerate the rate at which people lose trust in these systems and lead to the AI bubble popping faster then they have my full support. The entire space is just bad actors complaining about other bad actors while they're collectively ruining the web for everyone, each in their own way.

This whole attitude against AI reminds me of my parents being upset that the internet changed the way they live. They refused to take part in the internet revolution, and now they're surprised that they don't know how to navigate the web. I think that a part of them is still waiting for computers in general to magically disappear, and everything return to the times of their youth.

The internet actually enabled us to do new things. AI is nothing of that sort. It just generates mediocre statistically-plausible text.

Re: Bad Actors Are Grooming LLMs to Produce Falsehoods

#87

Post by rapnie »

anal_reactor wrote: post #77
dns_snek wrote: post #9

If actions by these bad actors accelerate the rate at which people lose trust in these systems and lead to the AI bubble popping faster then they have my full support. The entire space is just bad actors complaining about other bad actors while they're collectively ruining the web for everyone, each in their own way.

This whole attitude against AI reminds me of my parents being upset that the internet changed the way they live. They refused to take part in the internet revolution, and now they're surprised that they don't know how to navigate the web. I think that a part of them is still waiting for computers in general to magically disappear, and everything return to the times of their youth.

While the "move fast and break things" rushed embrace of anything AI reminds me of young wild children, who are blissfully unaware of any danger while their responsible parents try to keep them safe. It is lovely if children can believe in magic, but part of growing up involves facing reality and making responsible choices.

Re: Bad Actors Are Grooming LLMs to Produce Falsehoods

#88

Post by Nursie »

nailer wrote: post #23
GardenLetter27 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What we consider enemy propaganda today might be an official statement tomorrow. Remember when worrying about COVID was sinophobia? Or when the lab leak was a far-right conspiracy theory? When masks were deemed unnecessary except for healthcare professionals, but then mandated for everyone?

People seem to be voting this down as it seems like political advocacy, but the point seems to be that the commonly accepted truth does indeed change.

It’s very US-centric for a start.

In other countries we went from “that looks bad in China” to “shit, it spread to Italy now, we really need to worry”

And with masks we went from “we don’t think they’re necessary, handwashing seems more important” to “Ok shit it is airborne, mask up”. Public messaging adapted as more was known.

But the US seems to have to turn everything into a partisan fight, and we could watch, sadly, in real time as people picked matters of public health and scientific knowledge to get behind or to hate. God forbid anyone change their advice as they become better informed over time.

Seeing everything through this partisan, pugnacious prism seems to be a sickness US society is suffering from, and one it is trying (with some success) to spread.

Re: Bad Actors Are Grooming LLMs to Produce Falsehoods

#89

Post by [deleted] »

dns_snek wrote: post #9

If actions by these bad actors accelerate the rate at which people lose trust in these systems and lead to the AI bubble popping faster then they have my full support. The entire space is just bad actors complaining about other bad actors while they're collectively ruining the web for everyone, each in their own way.

[deleted]

Re: Bad Actors Are Grooming LLMs to Produce Falsehoods

#90

Post by zer00eyz »

scrollop wrote: post #76
serial_dev wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Now, why are you spending misinformation? The russian military doctrine of spreading a "firehouse of falsehood" is well documented. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_disinformation And yet, you switch it around and blame the west - exactly as per russian misinformation doctrine. Odd, eh?

> Now, why are you spending misinformation?

Are you going to claim that US politicians don't do the exact same thing? This is my favorite example of it, where one literally tells you what the play is while it's getting made: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnhJWusyj4I

Feelings not facts.

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