Preliminary report into Air India crash released • Hacker News Board

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#441

Post by Mawr » Sat, Jul 12, 2025, 8:55 AM UTC

energy123 wrote: post #224

russdill wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no possible way to confuse these two actions. There's a reason a wheel is attached to the gear lever.

I want you to guess how many traffic accidents are caused by accidentally reversing when you intended to go forward. Test your mental model against the real world. This is your opportunity.

Those are caused by operating the same lever in a slightly different manner. Not comparable to two completely differently designed levers placed far apart.

Same goes for accidental acceleration instead of braking. Two of the same kind of lever right next to each other.

Accidental acceleration while intending to turn on the wipers would be a fitting example, I don't think that happens though.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#442

Post by userbinator » Sat, Jul 12, 2025, 8:58 AM UTC

Epa095 wrote: post #211

userbinator wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and immediately thereafter, the Engine 1 and Engine 2 fuel cutoff switches transitioned from RUN to CUTOFF position one after another with a time gap of 01 sec Or more precisely, the signals which come from them were found to behave as such. Without any audible record of turning the switches off, I wouldn't blame the pilots without first checking the wiring and switches themselves for faults. This reminds me of the g…

But from the audio recording it seems like one pilot is noticing them bering in the CUTOFF position, and asking why (and moving it back). If the switch was actually in RUN, but some other issue caused the signal to be sendt, the pilot would see it beeing in the RUN position, not CUTTOF.

Where can I listen to this recording?

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#443

Post by callmeal » Sat, Jul 12, 2025, 8:59 AM UTC

sugarpimpdorsey wrote: post #348

Excellent analysis here, those switches are stout, no one is moving them by accident: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wA_UZeHZwSw

Except when they are not:

From the avherald link:

>Service Bulletins by Boeing issued in year 2018 recommending to upgrade the fuel switches to locked versions to prevent inadvertent flip of the switches, as well as the FAA/GE issued Service Bulletin FAA-2021-0273-0013 Attachment 2 relating to loss of control issue (also see above) were NOT implemented by Air India.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#444

Post by cypherpunks01 » Sat, Jul 12, 2025, 9:00 AM UTC

JSteph22 wrote: post #410

groos wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suicide is quite a stretch without any supporting evidence from the pilots' backgrounds. I would take mental fog, cognitive overload, wrong muscle memory, even a defective fuel cutoff system over suicide.

>mental fog, cognitive overload, wrong muscle memor Agreed. The sequence of events also supports this. I believe one of the pilots made a terrible muscle memory mistake and cutoff the fuel instead of raising the landing gear. This would explain why the landing gear was never raised, why the pilot who was accused of cutting off the fuel denied it (in his mind he had only retracted the landing gear) and why the engines…

Were the landing gear switches and fuel cutoff switches pretty close to each other here?

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#445

Post by callmeal » Sat, Jul 12, 2025, 9:00 AM UTC

bigtones wrote: post #151

Each of the fuel switches on the 787 is equipped with a locking mechanism that is supposed to prevent accidental movement, experts said. To turn the fuel supply on, the switch must be pulled outward and then moved to a “RUN” position, where it is released and settles back into a locked position. To turn the fuel supply off, the switch must be pulled outward again, moved to the “CUTOFF” position and then released agai…

Or they could be inadvertently flipped if the "locking" version was not installed: (see the avherald link):

>>India's media report that the investigation is NOT focussing on a human action causing the fuel switches to appear in the CUTOFF position, but on a system failure. Service Bulletins by Boeing issued in year 2018 recommending to upgrade the fuel switches to locked versions to prevent inadvertent flip of the switches, as well as the FAA/GE issued Service Bulletin FAA-2021-0273-0013 Attachment 2 relating to loss of control issue (also see above) were NOT implemented by Air India.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#446

Post by testrun » Sat, Jul 12, 2025, 9:02 AM UTC

anonzzzies wrote: post #334

resist_futility wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The switches on the lower panel that are switched, are the fuel cutoffs

But they don't look protected or hard to switch?

They are hard to switch. You need to lift them to switch.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#447

Post by dvh » Sat, Jul 12, 2025, 9:02 AM UTC

sugarpimpdorsey wrote: post #271

lazystar wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://ad.easa.europa.eu/ad/NM-18-33 well hold your horses there... from the FAA in their 2019 report linked above: > The Boeing Company (Boeing) received reports from operators of Model 737 airplanes that the fuel control switches were installed with the locking feature disengaged. The fuel control switches (or engine start switches) are installed on the control stand in the flight deck and used by the pilot to sup…

Totally different airplane with a totally different flight deck, designed generations apart. The fact that the manufacturer is the same is irrelevant. You are trying to draw parallels between the ignition switch in a 1974 Ford Pinto and a 2025 Ford Mustang as if there could be a connection. No.

Entirely different kind of flying altogether

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#448

Post by Mawr » Sat, Jul 12, 2025, 9:05 AM UTC

cjbprime wrote: post #156

russdill wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no possible way to confuse these two actions. There's a reason a wheel is attached to the gear lever.

> There is no possible way to confuse these two actions. This is obviously an overstatement. Any two regularly performed actions can be confused. Sometimes (when tired or distracted) I've walked into my bathroom intending to shave, but mistakenly brushed my teeth and left. My toothbrush and razor are not similar in function or placement.

That's just your brain associating the bathroom with the act of brushing your teeth, and therefore doing it automatically upon the trigger of entering the bathroom. It bears no resemblance to the accidental activation of a completely different button.

The other poster's correction: "it’s like brushing your teeth with razor" is apt. Touching the fuel cutoff switches is not part of any procedure remotely relevant to the takeoff, so there's no trigger present that would prompt the automatic behavior.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#449

Post by testrun » Sat, Jul 12, 2025, 9:07 AM UTC

jeswin wrote: post #263

The switch had to be operated deliberately, but still a UX fail on a modern aircraft if cutting off fuel to the engines does not result in an audible alert/alarm which both pilots can hear - especially at that altitude.

It would not make any difference. They were too low and did not have enough time to recover. They immediately switched back to on. Two captains is discussing it here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SE0BetkXsLg).

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#450

Post by Mawr » Sat, Jul 12, 2025, 9:09 AM UTC

chmod775 wrote: post #137

russdill wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no possible way to confuse these two actions. There's a reason a wheel is attached to the gear lever.

Sometimes people put cleaning liquid in the fridge. Given a long enough span of time, every possible fuck up eventually will happen.

Because there's no difference in actions needed to do so. A similar mistake is throwing away a useful item while holding onto a piece of trash. The action is the same, it's just the item in question that's different.

This is not what happened here at all. The actions needed to activate the fuel cutoff switches are not similar to any other action a pilot would want to make during takeoff.