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Preliminary report into Air India crash released

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#371

Post by 0_-_0 »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #50
lazystar wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://ad.easa.europa.eu/ad/NM-18-33 well hold your horses there... from the FAA in their 2019 report linked above: > The Boeing Company (Boeing) received reports from operators of Model 737 airplanes that the fuel control switches were installed with the locking feature disengaged. The fuel control switches (or engine start switches) are installed on the control stand in the flight deck and used by the pilot to sup…

https://www.youtube.com/live/SE0BetkXsLg?si=LPss_su3PVTAqGCO Both of these extremely-experienced pilots say that there was near zero chance that the fuel switches were unintentionally moved. They were switched off within one second of each other, which rules out most failure scenarios. If it was an issue with the switches, we also would have seen an air worthiness directive being issued. But they didn’t, because this…

Maybe as the PIC was guarding the lower end of the throttle he rested the rest of his hand on the panel cover below the throttle and, while pushing forward on the throttle, let the side of his hand slide down right onto the switches, the likeliness of which would have been exacerbated by a rough runway or a large bump. It's unlikely the left and right part of his hand would have contacted the cutoff switches at the same time, hence the delay between the two switches being actuated. Of course this relies on the safety locks not working properly, which is something that hand been reported.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#372

Post by 0_-_0 »

russdill wrote: post #122
lazystar wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://ad.easa.europa.eu/ad/NM-18-33 well hold your horses there... from the FAA in their 2019 report linked above: > The Boeing Company (Boeing) received reports from operators of Model 737 airplanes that the fuel control switches were installed with the locking feature disengaged. The fuel control switches (or engine start switches) are installed on the control stand in the flight deck and used by the pilot to sup…

These switches are operated at startup and shutdown. So pretty much daily. By pilots and likely maintenance crews. Such a defect with not to unnoticed for long

It could have been unimportant to them

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#373

Post by YuukiRey »

burnt-resistor wrote: post #326
sugarpimpdorsey wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of them moved the levers. It could've been an unplanned reaction, a terrible mistake, or it could've been intentional. Fuel levers are designed to only be moved deliberately; they cannot be mistaken for something else by a professional pilot. It's literally their job to know where these buttons are, what they do, and when to (not) push them. It's not arrogance to assume the most likely conclusion is true, despi…

> cannot be mistaken for something else Assumption. Big ass assumption. Pilot are trained until actions are instinctual and certain memory items are almost unconscious. But pilots are still people and people are fallible and make mistakes, and sometimes act unreasonably. Intent cannot be determined without clear evidence or statements because that's now how thoughts locked away in people's minds work. > It's not arro…

It’s the explanation that requires the fewest explanations and assumptions I’d say.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#374

Post by padjo »

maxbond wrote: post #303
notpushkin wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mentour Pilot is a fantastic channel.

Anyone who does on-call should look into aviation disasters. Crew resource management, the aviate-navigate-communicate loop, it's all very applicable. ('WalterBright is an excellent source of commentary on applying lessons from the airline industry to software.) But I did burn out on Mentour Pilot after a while, I just had my fill of tragedy.

Something I love about Mentour pilot is that he’s started doing videos on incidents where there was a near miss but no tragedy. Just as much to learn but without the ghoulish rubbernecking aspect.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#375

Post by octo888 »

throwawaycan wrote: post #268
WalterBright wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's difficult to conclude anything other than murder-suicide. Remember that incident where a cop pulled out his taser and tased the suspect? Except he pulled out his pistol and fired it. The taser looks nothing like a pistol, feels nothing like it, yet it is still possible to confuse the two in the heat of the moment.

It’s always easy in those threads to see who’s familiar with the world of aviation and who’s not. No it’s not comparable to a cop that confuses things in the heat of the moment. Not anywhere close to be relatable. If it was, planes would be crashing down the sky quite often (and it would have been fixed for decades already).

WalterBright is not totally unfamiliar with the aviation world...:

> Bright is the son of the United States Air Force pilot Charles D. Bright

> Bright graduated from Caltech in 1979 with a Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering and a minor in Aeronautical Engineering

> He worked for Boeing for 3 years on the development of the 757 stabilizer trim system

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#376

Post by swores »

zamadatix wrote: post #130
fsckboy wrote: post #72

it makes sense to me that the pilot who said "I did not do it" actually did do it without realizing it, was supposed to be putting the landing gear up when he committed a muscle memory mistake. it happened around the time the landing gear should be up, and this explanation matches what was said in the cockpit, and the fact that the landing gear wasn't retracted. I think this idea was even floated initially by the you…

One of the nice things about finally having the preliminary report is I get to stop hearing all of the same assumptions/theories/YouTuber said/"a guy I know got a leaked report"/etc in water cooler talk at work because the preliminary report solidly disproved all of them so far. If anyone even had and stuck with an idea matching this report it wouldn't have stood out in the conversations anyways. The collection of co…

It's human nature to want to guess at possible explanations for things that are unusual and unexpected.

If hearing those guesses annoys you, nobody is forcing you to read through comments on a thread of people making them! (I hope - sorry if you are being forced after all.)

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#377

Post by ExoticPearTree »

imoverclocked wrote: post #358
burnt-resistor wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Fan blade off, shroud separation, HP disc separation, compressor stall, FOD ingestion/bird strike, EGT rise, oil system issues. Very unlikely events but still possible events that need a prepared response to and capabilities to manage the aircraft. The presumption is that the crew is trained, diligent, disciplined, and concerned with survival. Without that, aircraft would need to be unmanned and flown by AI lack…

I'm not sure you want a creative AI flying a plane anyway.

You can call it Schroedinger Airlines :))

You may or may not reach your destination. Or something like that.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#379

Post by melenaboija »

Yokolos wrote: post #359
melenaboija wrote: post #353

I'm completely ignorant about this matter, but why is it even possible to cut off fuel while taking off? Shouldn't there be a control that completely disables this? Is there actually a situation where cutting off both engines could be necessary and wouldn't lead to a catastrophe?

Engine fire requires you to cut fuel to the affected engine.

Is cutting off fuel while taking off a better solution than letting them burn?

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#380

Post by padjo »

efitz wrote: post #336

It’s interesting to see how many people are bending over backwards here to avoid coming to the obvious conclusion. If this was pilot suicide, it’s a terrible thing. If it was somehow an error (which seems very unlikely) or two defective controls (which seems even more unlikely), then it remains a tragedy. But I don’t need to do mental gymnastics to come up with implausible hypotheticals. This comment stream on HN is…

It’s nowhere near an obvious conclusion. A failure with the locking mechanism or muscle memory confusion are just as likely, and probably other theories I’m not thinking of. More investigation is clearly needed, which is why this is called a preliminary report.
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