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Preliminary report into Air India crash released

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#71

Post by anonymousiam »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #57

[flagged]

The report says the co-pilot was flying.

The report says the black box reports the fuel cutoff switches being activated. That doesn't necessarily mean that either of the two pilots activated them, it just means that the fly-by-wire system reacted to a fuel cutoff event.

"The aircraft achieved the maximum recorded airspeed of 180 Knots IAS at about 08:08:42 UTC and immediately thereafter, the Engine 1 and Engine 2 fuel cutoff switches transitioned from RUN to CUTOFF position one after another with a time gap of 01 sec. The Engine N1 and N2 began to decrease from their take-off values as the fuel supply to the engines was cutoff.

In the cockpit voice recording, one of the pilots is heard asking the other why did he cutoff.

The other pilot responded that he did not do so."

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#72

Post by fsckboy »

it makes sense to me that the pilot who said "I did not do it" actually did do it without realizing it, was supposed to be putting the landing gear up when he committed a muscle memory mistake. it happened around the time the landing gear should be up, and this explanation matches what was said in the cockpit, and the fact that the landing gear wasn't retracted. I think this idea was even floated initially by the youtube pilot/analysts I watch but dismissed as unlikely.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#73

Post by acjohnson55 »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #65
suyash wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a possibility that they got hacked and remotely toggled ?

Sadly not. It’s a physical switch with no capability of a remote toggle. The flight data recorder clearly shows one was toggled off within a second of the other, which rules out almost every non-intentional scenario.

What if he mistook the switch for a different switch?

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#74

Post by sillysaurusx »

School-Cotton wrote: post #67
sillysaurusx wrote: post #57

[flagged]

I don’t understand this part of your post: > This was not suicide, or murder-suicide; it was one of the most horrific mass murders in history, in which the guy that did it happened to lose his life in the process. Why wouldn’t this qualify as a murder-suicide, assuming your theory is correct?

I guess I let my emotions get in the way. But nobody seems to be saying that we’ve witnessed one of the worst acts of mass murder in history. Most of the notorious serial killers don’t come close to killing 300 people.

It feels qualitatively different than someone pointing a gun at someone else and then themselves, which is usually what pops to mind when you hear “murder-suicide”.

You’re correct though, it qualifies.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#75

Post by bgwalter »

cosmicgadget wrote: post #54
dcreater wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know if the mechanical position of the switch guarantees its electronic state without any possibility for hardware malfunction? If no, then you are claiming a person made one of the most grave acts of inhumanity ever. This sounds to me like an electronics issue - an intermittent, inadvertent state transition likely due to some PCB component malfunction

Murder-suicide has happened on a few occasions. How many times has your malfunction occurred on an aircraft fuel system?

Not precisely the electrical malfunction, but dual engine shutdown has occurred, fortunately after landing:

https://www.aerosociety.com/news/ana-787-engine-shutdown/

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#77

Post by janice1999 »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #69
andrewinardeer wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it was one of the most horrific mass murder in history This implies intent. > One pilot asked “why did you turn them off?” and the other said “I didn’t.” To me this reads like an unintentional error with colossol implications. Are you suggesting there was malicious intent and then a delibrately crafted denial by the perpetrator?

I am, and I’m willing to stake my reputation on it. If I’m wrong, I’ll hang up my hat and never cover live news again. Pilots are drilled from day one that the fuel switches are sacred. After a few accidents where one engine failed and the pilot accidentally turned off the remaining functional engine, the training was overhauled so that it would be impossible for it to be an easy action done by mistake. One pilot is…

> If I’m wrong, I’ll hang up my hat and never cover live news again.

It easy to say that when you know there's likely no way to prove or disprove whether it as an accident or not. Unless a pilot left a note stating his future intentions, there's no way to determine their state of mind.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#78

Post by kraigspear »

andrewinardeer wrote: post #64
sillysaurusx wrote: post #57

[flagged]

> it was one of the most horrific mass murder in history This implies intent. > One pilot asked “why did you turn them off?” and the other said “I didn’t.” To me this reads like an unintentional error with colossol implications. Are you suggesting there was malicious intent and then a delibrately crafted denial by the perpetrator?

The switches require that you pull them out, move them to the end position and then push them back down, and it was two switches. It could have still took off on one engine. This is essentially the turn off plane switch. It would seem to almost impossible that it would be an accident.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#79

Post by ajb »

snypher wrote: post #33
joezydeco wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Report says the switches went to cutoff one second apart from each other. Can a human do the physical operation on two switches that quickly?

There's a good photo of them here; https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/ai171-investigatio... You can do them both with one hand.

If you do them both with one hand, would they not be moved at the same instant rather than 1 second apart?

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#80

Post by sillysaurusx »

janice1999 wrote: post #77
sillysaurusx wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am, and I’m willing to stake my reputation on it. If I’m wrong, I’ll hang up my hat and never cover live news again. Pilots are drilled from day one that the fuel switches are sacred. After a few accidents where one engine failed and the pilot accidentally turned off the remaining functional engine, the training was overhauled so that it would be impossible for it to be an easy action done by mistake. One pilot is…

> If I’m wrong, I’ll hang up my hat and never cover live news again. It easy to say that when you know there's likely no way to prove or disprove whether it as an accident or not. Unless a pilot left a note stating his future intentions, there's no way to determine their state of mind.

Someone took their hand, pulled one spring-loaded switch into the off position, and then did it the other switch moments later. Is there any way that could be accidental?

If there was no mechanical failure, the only remaining possibility is deliberate action. And if it was mechanical failure, we’d see an emergency air worthiness directive being issued, which we haven’t.

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