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At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

nytimes.com

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Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#401

Post by arranf »

IshKebab wrote: post #387
lawlessone wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same way many think about welfare/unemployment/disability schemes. Constant hoops to jump through to prove they're looking for work or still incapable. Or in the case of illness to prove they're still sick. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59067101

Yeah but in the UK there actually are lots of people claiming benefits that probably shouldn't be. Especially Personal Independent Payments. It's enough of an issue that even Labour (left wing) is having to deal with it. Though as usual Starmer has chickened out (I think this is like the third thing that was obviously a good move that he's backed down on after dumb backlash).

Can you provide sources for your claim?

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#402

Post by Jooror »

jen20 wrote: post #373
Jooror wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me a system for which you believe the audit trail is absolutely correct in every case and I’ll show you a midwit…

It is straightfoward to build systems which derive their state from the audit trail instead of building the audit trail in parallel. That is what event sourcing is.

TIL, thanks!

I was attempting to emphasize the absurdity of any software system being “absolutely correct at all times”. I don’t believe such a system can exist, at least not in such strong terms.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#403

Post by ginko »

hungmung wrote: post #380
ginko wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe Napoleon should have conquered Britain after all.

Yeah but then every criminal case would presume guilt.

What makes you think presumption of innocence is not a thing in civil law?

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#404

Post by mousethatroared »

hotpocket777 wrote: post #328
mbonnet wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work on satellites that are intended for use in missile tracking. If I fail in the software, it might not "kill people", but people will die due to the failures. Though, I used to work on fighter jets and SAMs. People do die due to my work.

[flagged]

Look your question is not unreasonable and the s answer is interesting, but your tone implies loathing and belittling.

Which maybe we (I also work in "defense") deserve to burn in hell, but who are you to be self righteous? For example, if you ever put up a Ukraine flag sticker you'd be a hypocrite too.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#405

Post by Brian_K_White »

horizion2025 wrote: post #358
ionwake wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found this comment insightful but I feel I must itirate ( maybe its not needed), that it is not "clear" if leadership were ignorant, as you said, ( though Im sure you are part right ), I have read that it was malicious leadership trying to protect their own asses as per another comment.

What I've seen so far suggest they were just ignorant and victims of confirmational bias etc. You can see that when they won some cases they wrote internally something to the effect of "Final we can put to rest all those concerns about these cases blablabla". So it became self-validating. Also the courts and defense lawyers didn't manage to the see the pattern and in the huge numbers of such cases. Each defendant was…

"victims of confirmational bias"

dude

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#407

Post by sarreph »

klik99 wrote: post #398
sarreph wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a salient observation that I don’t think has been presented bluntly enough by the media or popular culture (such as Mr Bates Vs The Post Office). The UK is class-obsessed, which is not as immediately clear to the rest of the world (especially US). Lends a lot of credence to your theory.

As a cultural mutt between US and UK, I think UK is "class-aware" and US is more obsessed with the idea that if we all wear jeans then class isn't a thing. I see the same class contempt in US as the UK, and not recognizing it for what it is keeps people divided.

I agree that contempt arises in both cultures. My point about the UK was more around the phenomenon that the class "obsession" stems from the notion that somebody's class in the UK is ostensibly immutable from birth. (It is my impression that class in the US is much more about money; your status and class can be correlated / increased by your level of wealth).

In the UK it doesn't really matter if you become a millionaire or billionaire, you still won't be able to perforate the perception of "where you came from". This leads to all kinds of baseless biases such as OP's observation / point.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#408

Post by Hercuros »

lanfeust6 wrote: post #349
xbryanx wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in no quantifiable way whatsoever You may disagree with my assertion, but there has been considerable research into the role of media and reporting in suicide, indicating that contagion is real and that words matter when reporting on these issues. Source: https://reportingonsuicide.org/research/

That words matter is why I'm in opposition, as this diminishes agency in people. Today I would say that framing suicide as "immoral" in secular society is banal and has no traction, but most, excepting certain circumstances, would suggest it is a bad choice. That surely follows if you as well as I would try to talk an able person out of suicide. I don't think it helps to diminish agency as though suicide is an inevit…

The person you are replying to shared some research by experts on the topic giving recommendations. You can argue for or against anything, but it’s useful to at least engage with the evidence being presented.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#409

Post by amiga386 »

arrowsmith wrote: post #315
jolmg wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but that doesn't change the meaning of words. Words can have multiple similar definitions with small variations. If I look up "defamation" I get: > Defamation is a legal term that refers to any statement made by a person, whether verbal or printed, that causes harm to another person’s reputation or character. --- https://legaldictionary.net/defamation/ > Defamation is a communication that injures a third party's re…

I stand corrected.

Truth (in English law) is merely a defence to an accusation of libel or slander, and it is not an absolute defence. If you say or print true things about a person, that lowers their reputation in the eyes of an ordinary person, and you are motivated by malice, then you have still committed the crime of defamation.

English libel law is an evolution of the former English law known as scandalum magnatum -- "scandalizing the mighty". Basically, if you say bad things about powerful people, those powerful people will crush you with the law.

As an example, Robert Maxwell embezzled millions from his company's pension fund, and also used that money to sue anyone who slighted him - including anyone who said he was embezzling from his company's pension fund. He was never prosecuted for embezzling millions from his company's pension fund.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#410

Post by IshKebab »

rossant wrote: post #207
akudha wrote: post #140

This was depressing to read. Failures at so many levels. 1. Immediately after Horizon was rolled out, issues were reported. But ignored 2. Prosecutors didn't bother to verify if there is another explanation before accusing thousands of people of stealing? Isn't it common sense to pause for a second and think, "could we please double check the evidence? how can thousands of postal workers suddenly turn into thieves?"…

Read about this [1, 2]. This is not yet a well-known scandal, but I expect (and hope) it will surface in the coming years or decade. It is on an even bigger scale, not limited to a single country, and it has been going on not just for 10 years but for many decades. [1] https://cambridgeblog.org/2023/05/a-journey-into-the-shaken-... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37650402

Wow that's crazy. Good work! I guess this is a less "compelling" scandal than Horizon because there isn't one or two entities that are responsible.
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