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At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

nytimes.com

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Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#391

Post by umbra07 »

esseph wrote: post #279
BobaFloutist wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States (famously) has stronger free speech protections and weaker libel/slander laws, yet seems to have less of an issue with tabloids. Is there maybe more of a divide between what's alloweable for "public figures" versus private citizens? Or maybe even our right-wing rags are more skeptical of the government? I don't know what the difference is, but you seem to see less of this sort of thing, gross as our…

The US tabloids are awful. Any checkout isle at a Walmart, Dollar General, etc is just littered with them, right next to the disposable lighter packs and chewing gum.

they aren't nearly as toxic as the UK tabloids.

Also, I never hear anybody talk about what the tabloids are reporting. There's a lot of social stigma attached to them in the US.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#392

Post by ionwake »

horizion2025 wrote: post #358
ionwake wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found this comment insightful but I feel I must itirate ( maybe its not needed), that it is not "clear" if leadership were ignorant, as you said, ( though Im sure you are part right ), I have read that it was malicious leadership trying to protect their own asses as per another comment.

What I've seen so far suggest they were just ignorant and victims of confirmational bias etc. You can see that when they won some cases they wrote internally something to the effect of "Final we can put to rest all those concerns about these cases blablabla". So it became self-validating. Also the courts and defense lawyers didn't manage to the see the pattern and in the huge numbers of such cases. Each defendant was…

You're probably right—I just wanted to share a few thoughts and would welcome any corrections or clarification.

If I were in leadership, I'd assume there are edge cases I'm missing and take responsibility accordingly. Id just assume that is my job, as the leader, that is why I am paid, to make important decisions and stop the company from making big mistakes.

This isn’t a critique of your view—just an observation: there's a recurring theme on HN that leadership shouldn't be held responsible when things break down, as if being a CEO is just another job, not a position of accountability.

Where does this come from? Is it a uniquely American or capitalist norm?

I recall ( i dont think incorrectly) 1980s Japanese leadership—tech/auto who took failures so seriously they’d resign or even mention/think of sudoku.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#393

Post by wat10000 »

lanfeust6 wrote: post #341
wat10000 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Healthy, sane people in good situations don't kill themselves. It follows from that fact that if someone kills themselves, at least one of those things was not true. And those things can and often are thrust on people, or at least occur against the will of the person. In this case, a bad situation was thrust on a whole bunch of people, and it ended up killing some of them.

> Healthy, sane people in good situations don't kill themselves. Correct. This has no bearing. > it ended up killing some of them. No, and it's irresponsible and unhelpful to act like agency and choice is not part of the equation. As if to say that basically everyone chooses the same way (euthanasia) in the face of terminal illness, or depression. Tautologically, if you want to convey that help is out there and that…

There's a lot of agency in heart attacks too, but we still say that the heart attack killed them, not that they killed themselves with a heart attack.

There is agency, but it's equally irresponsible and unhelpful to act like outside factors are not part of the equation, and that someone who drives a person to suicide is blameless.

Let's say someone jumps out of a burning building and they're killed by the fall. Did they have agency? Responsibility? Should we describe that as "committed suicide"?

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#394

Post by arrowsmith »

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote: post #338
arrowsmith wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that we should be forgiving, give people second chances etc, but that doesn't change the meaning of words. "Defamation" is when you damage someone's reputation by saying things about them that aren't true. If you were convicted of a crime long ago and someone draws attention to that fact, they're not defaming you. The truth isn't defamation, by definition.

> The truth isn't defamation, by definition. Perhaps you mean slander/libel?

Slander and libel are subcategories of defamation.

Libel = defamation in writing. Slander = defamation in speech.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#395

Post by klik99 »

jordanb wrote: post #191

I went on a deep dive on this scandal about a year or so ago. One thing that struck me is the class element. Basically, the Post Office leadership could not understand why someone would buy a PO franchise. It's a substantial amount of money up front, and people aren't allowed to buy multiple franchises, so every PO was an owner/operator position. Essentially people were "buying a job". The people in leadership couldn…

Someone brought this up in a previous HN comment section as an example of trust in software ruining peoples lives. But your explanation is far more human and recontextualizes it a bit for me - it just happened to be that this was done with software, but the real motivation was contempt for the lower classes and could have easily have happened 100 years ago with an internal investigation task force.

Growing up half in England and US I feel British culture is more attuned to the class aspects to this kind of event. Traditionally America likes to pretend this kind of class contempt doesn't exist (think of, people on welfare angry at welfare queens, unaware they will be affected by legislation they support).

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#396

Post by __turbobrew__ »

ImHereToVote wrote: post #184
dagmx wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said. I really wish we had a better word for someone who is bullied into suicide. It’s tantamount to manslaughter imho. Recently, a snark/bullying community on Reddit resulted in the suicide of their target (a woman responsible for rescuing foxes). That kind of targeting and bullying is horrific for any individual to process, let alone people who don’t have the press teams and training that celebrities do.

This sets a bad precedent. There is a wide gamut of emotional resilience in people. What is a funny insult to one person, can be rope-fuel to another. Would you want to be called that if you make a light jab at a middle aged bald guy?

A 90 year old is much more physically fragile than a 20 year old. If you hit a 20 year old and they are bruised you get an assault charge, if you hit a 90 year old and they die you get a murder charge, despite using the same amount of force.

I do agree with the sibling post that suicide would be weaponized which is the real problem.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#397

Post by wat10000 »

akudha wrote: post #366
flir wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone does it. You and me too. It's just how brains work. First the opinion, then the evidence to back up the opinion.

Maybe everyone does it at some level, but not everyone works in a job that has the potential to wreck other people's lives and freedoms. There should be a higher standard for doctors, prosecutors, cops, judges etc than someone writing a todo CRUD app or a cashier at a bodega. It is not too much to ask for prosecutors to be a bit more careful, bit more factual, understand the powers that come with their position and u…

Law enforcement could definitely do better here. The nature of the job tends to attract people who like exerting power over others, and I imagine that correlates with deciding people are guilty first, and finding evidence later.

But everybody is like this to an extent, so you need to fix this in other ways too. This is why reasonable countries have a whole bunch of process around legal punishment, and don't just throw someone in prison after a police officer says so. All the restrictions on how evidence is gathered and what kind of proof needs to be provided are ways to work around this problem. The police and prosecutor might decide someone is guilty, but they still have to convince twelve ordinary people. (Or whatever the process is in your country of choice.)

It sounds like this is where things really fell apart with the postal scandal, and the courts were willing to convict with insufficient evidence.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#398

Post by klik99 »

sarreph wrote: post #368
jordanb wrote: post #191

I went on a deep dive on this scandal about a year or so ago. One thing that struck me is the class element. Basically, the Post Office leadership could not understand why someone would buy a PO franchise. It's a substantial amount of money up front, and people aren't allowed to buy multiple franchises, so every PO was an owner/operator position. Essentially people were "buying a job". The people in leadership couldn…

This is a salient observation that I don’t think has been presented bluntly enough by the media or popular culture (such as Mr Bates Vs The Post Office). The UK is class-obsessed, which is not as immediately clear to the rest of the world (especially US). Lends a lot of credence to your theory.

As a cultural mutt between US and UK, I think UK is "class-aware" and US is more obsessed with the idea that if we all wear jeans then class isn't a thing. I see the same class contempt in US as the UK, and not recognizing it for what it is keeps people divided.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#399

Post by pipes »

jordanb wrote: post #191

I went on a deep dive on this scandal about a year or so ago. One thing that struck me is the class element. Basically, the Post Office leadership could not understand why someone would buy a PO franchise. It's a substantial amount of money up front, and people aren't allowed to buy multiple franchises, so every PO was an owner/operator position. Essentially people were "buying a job". The people in leadership couldn…

I've been following this since the guardian wrote about it, maybe 2011 or 2013 (private eye was earlier) It was insane. I couldn't understand the lack of fuss. Maybe it is because as a programmer I guess that 95 percent of all software is complete shit and most of the developers don't know or don't care.

You've hit the nail on the head "why would anyone want a middle class life" yeah they have never known anything less than that.

The other factor to me is the careerism, all that matters is the project success, who cares if the riff raff end up committing suicide. Honestly listening to some of the tapes of those meetings makes me feel sick. Thing is, I think so many career orientated people I know wouldn't even consider that what went on in the meetings was beyond the pale. It's black mirror level.

I'm from Ireland, but I live on "mainland Britain" the UK class system is mind boggling. I think the establishment here despises the "great unwashed". God help any working class person who ends up in the courts system.

One final thing, Paula Vennells was an ordained church minister. She was preaching while she was overseeing the destruction of so many innocent hardworking people. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells

I don't know why that makes this all worse but some how it does. Somehow it speaks to what the UK is or has become.

I doubt she'll get the prison time she deserves. Actually I doubt she'll serve any time at all.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#400

Post by martin-t »

monksy wrote: post #384

Don't forget her name: Paula Vennells (Royal Mail CEO). She went on record to state there was no issue despite reports. I'm sure we're see justice for her actions. /s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells Remember her: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPYo_gq329w

Lying should be punishable according to max(expected harm, indended harm, actual harm).

Making factual statements from a position of power without making sure they are correct is lying.

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