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At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

nytimes.com

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Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#311

Post by burkaman »

arrowsmith wrote: post #294
akudha wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it not make sense? If I was involved in a robbery at age 18, as a dumb kid, should I still be called "robber xyz" for the rest of my life? Especially if I turned my life around?

I agree that we should be forgiving, give people second chances etc, but that doesn't change the meaning of words. "Defamation" is when you damage someone's reputation by saying things about them that aren't true. If you were convicted of a crime long ago and someone draws attention to that fact, they're not defaming you. The truth isn't defamation, by definition.

Calling someone a robber means they are currently a robber. It can be inaccurate and untrue in the same way that calling someone a bartender would be inaccurate and untrue if they are a lawyer who hasn't tended a bar in 20 years.

I don't like the idea of prosecuting people for this, but I don't think it's illogical.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#312

Post by rossant »

fn-mote wrote: post #298
rossant wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read about this [1, 2]. This is not yet a well-known scandal, but I expect (and hope) it will surface in the coming years or decade. It is on an even bigger scale, not limited to a single country, and it has been going on not just for 10 years but for many decades. [1] https://cambridgeblog.org/2023/05/a-journey-into-the-shaken-... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37650402

Incredible. Reading HN pays off again. Thank you for sharing. The link is to a book by a PhD neuroscientist investigation the scientific basis for shaken baby syndrome.

Yes, that's me.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#313

Post by LtWorf »

mathiaspoint wrote: post #53
closewith wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The British legal system is and always has been a litany of injustices dressed up in formal attire. To be avoided at all costs.

That mess inspired the American legal system though, which is probably one of if not the best in the world. IMO common law is still better than case law at least.

Isn't the american legal system the one who famously killed Sacco and Vanzetti?

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#314

Post by ginko »

michael1999 wrote: post #291
noisy_boy wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The actual answer to this is terrible. Courts had to trust the computer was correct. There was a common law presumption that a computer was operating correctly unless there is evidence to the contrary That is just mind bogglingly stupid - who the hell are the idiots who wrote a law like that? Any of them wrote a line of code in their life?

It's incremental, and goes back to things like clocks. Imagine a witness says "I saw him go into the bank at 11:20. I know the time because I looked up at the clock tower, and it said 11:20". Defence argues "The clock must have been wrong. My client was at lunch with his wife by 11:15". Clocks are simple enough that we can presume them to correct, unless you can present evidence that they are unreliable. This presump…

Maybe Napoleon should have conquered Britain after all.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#315

Post by arrowsmith »

jolmg wrote: post #305
arrowsmith wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that we should be forgiving, give people second chances etc, but that doesn't change the meaning of words. "Defamation" is when you damage someone's reputation by saying things about them that aren't true. If you were convicted of a crime long ago and someone draws attention to that fact, they're not defaming you. The truth isn't defamation, by definition.

> but that doesn't change the meaning of words. Words can have multiple similar definitions with small variations. If I look up "defamation" I get: > Defamation is a legal term that refers to any statement made by a person, whether verbal or printed, that causes harm to another person’s reputation or character. --- https://legaldictionary.net/defamation/ > Defamation is a communication that injures a third party's re…

I stand corrected.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#316

Post by forinti »

jordanb wrote: post #191

I went on a deep dive on this scandal about a year or so ago. One thing that struck me is the class element. Basically, the Post Office leadership could not understand why someone would buy a PO franchise. It's a substantial amount of money up front, and people aren't allowed to buy multiple franchises, so every PO was an owner/operator position. Essentially people were "buying a job". The people in leadership couldn…

That's interesting. I read a lot about this case, but I don't recall anything along these lines.

This does explain why the leadership was so stubborn.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#317

Post by cgriswald »

arrowsmith wrote: post #281
cgriswald wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Civil defamation laws could equally be used to undermine freedom of the press. In any case, the 'can of worms' you are talking about was the state of affairs in the UK until 2009 and is currently the case in several US states and yet somehow we still have people in those states openly criticizing a sitting president. Rather than throwing our hands in the air, maybe we could expect our governments to craft laws in suc…

The UK already has extremely strong defamation laws, to the point where we attract "libel tourism" - foreigners find dubious excuses to bring their libel cases to the UK courts so that they have an easier chance of winning. Lots of people in my replies are telling me that I'm wrong, but no-one has yet answered my question: what specifically should the government do?

That’s because your question appears rhetorical. You had already come to the conclusion that governments couldn’t or shouldn’t do anything.

What could be done: (1) Stronger penalties, perhaps tied to proportionate burdens of proof. (2) Criminal penalties.

A weak burden of proof with mediocre penalties is just a cost of doing business.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#318

Post by BobaFloutist »

esseph wrote: post #279
BobaFloutist wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States (famously) has stronger free speech protections and weaker libel/slander laws, yet seems to have less of an issue with tabloids. Is there maybe more of a divide between what's alloweable for "public figures" versus private citizens? Or maybe even our right-wing rags are more skeptical of the government? I don't know what the difference is, but you seem to see less of this sort of thing, gross as our…

The US tabloids are awful. Any checkout isle at a Walmart, Dollar General, etc is just littered with them, right next to the disposable lighter packs and chewing gum.

Sure, I did say they were gross, but they just seem to mostly cause less concrete damage. Not sure why.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#319

Post by flir »

njovin wrote: post #292
jordanb wrote: post #191

I went on a deep dive on this scandal about a year or so ago. One thing that struck me is the class element. Basically, the Post Office leadership could not understand why someone would buy a PO franchise. It's a substantial amount of money up front, and people aren't allowed to buy multiple franchises, so every PO was an owner/operator position. Essentially people were "buying a job". The people in leadership couldn…

So the PO creates a franchise program that they later decide isn't suitable for any sane, good-faith actor, and instead of revising the terms of the franchise program to make it so, they assume that the participants are criminals and prosecute them?

I see you've worked with a moribund bureaucracy before.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#320

Post by mbonnet »

SCdF wrote: post #157

Effectively tortured to death. One of the things that frustrates me with how ethics is taught in computer science is that we use examples like Therac 25, and people listen in horror, then their takeaway is frequently "well thank god I don't work on medical equipment". The fact that it's medical equipment is a distraction. All software can cause harm to others. All of it. You need to care about all of it.

I work on satellites that are intended for use in missile tracking. If I fail in the software, it might not "kill people", but people will die due to the failures.

Though, I used to work on fighter jets and SAMs. People do die due to my work.

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