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At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

nytimes.com

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Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#231

Post by Maxious »

jen20 wrote: post #204
jordanb wrote: post #191

I went on a deep dive on this scandal about a year or so ago. One thing that struck me is the class element. Basically, the Post Office leadership could not understand why someone would buy a PO franchise. It's a substantial amount of money up front, and people aren't allowed to buy multiple franchises, so every PO was an owner/operator position. Essentially people were "buying a job". The people in leadership couldn…

I suspect there's more to it in than that. I'd wager there was a solid amount of general incompetence involved at the PO "corporate" - management politically couldn't admit that their consultingware could be anything other than perfect, because they signed off on the decision to buy it, and probably on all the work orders that got them to that point. If anyone from PO management or that of the consulting firm (Fujits…

I regret to inform you that not only is Fujitsu not banned from UK government work, they're not even banned from continuing the same project https://www.publictechnology.net/2025/03/17/business-and-ind...

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#232

Post by trollbridge »

XTXinverseXTY wrote: post #228
jordanb wrote: post #191

I went on a deep dive on this scandal about a year or so ago. One thing that struck me is the class element. Basically, the Post Office leadership could not understand why someone would buy a PO franchise. It's a substantial amount of money up front, and people aren't allowed to buy multiple franchises, so every PO was an owner/operator position. Essentially people were "buying a job". The people in leadership couldn…

Forgive my indelicate question, but why would someone buy a PO franchise?

People buy into all kinds of money-losing businesses... Edible Arrangements, Nothing Bundt Cakes, various multi-level marketing type of schemes.

And yes, a lot of people are willing to go into debt to effectively pay to have a job.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#233

Post by cedws »

rwmj wrote: post #59
cedws wrote: post #34

The failing is as much with the court as it is with Fujitsu. Why did they blindly accept Horizon’s data as evidence? What if the computer said the Queen stole all the money and ran off to Barbados, would they have thrown her in jail? Why was the output of a black box, which may as well have been a notebook Fujitsu could have written anything they wanted into, treated as gospel?

The actual answer to this is terrible. Courts had to trust the computer was correct. There was a common law presumption that a computer was operating correctly unless there is evidence to the contrary (and getting that evidence is basically impossible for the individuals being charged who were post office workers, not computer experts, and the source code was a trade secret). This might change, partly in response to…

I was not aware of this. Wow.

I hope they're taking a hard look at past cases where they've done this.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#234

Post by [deleted] »

XTXinverseXTY wrote: post #228
jordanb wrote: post #191

I went on a deep dive on this scandal about a year or so ago. One thing that struck me is the class element. Basically, the Post Office leadership could not understand why someone would buy a PO franchise. It's a substantial amount of money up front, and people aren't allowed to buy multiple franchises, so every PO was an owner/operator position. Essentially people were "buying a job". The people in leadership couldn…

Forgive my indelicate question, but why would someone buy a PO franchise?

[deleted]

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#235

Post by [deleted] »

XTXinverseXTY wrote: post #228
jordanb wrote: post #191

I went on a deep dive on this scandal about a year or so ago. One thing that struck me is the class element. Basically, the Post Office leadership could not understand why someone would buy a PO franchise. It's a substantial amount of money up front, and people aren't allowed to buy multiple franchises, so every PO was an owner/operator position. Essentially people were "buying a job". The people in leadership couldn…

Forgive my indelicate question, but why would someone buy a PO franchise?

[deleted]

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#236

Post by ionwake »

jordanb wrote: post #191

I went on a deep dive on this scandal about a year or so ago. One thing that struck me is the class element. Basically, the Post Office leadership could not understand why someone would buy a PO franchise. It's a substantial amount of money up front, and people aren't allowed to buy multiple franchises, so every PO was an owner/operator position. Essentially people were "buying a job". The people in leadership couldn…

I found this comment insightful but I feel I must itirate ( maybe its not needed), that it is not "clear" if leadership were ignorant, as you said, ( though Im sure you are part right ), I have read that it was malicious leadership trying to protect their own asses as per another comment.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#237

Post by throwawayHpCvfn »

whycome wrote: post #185
throwawayHpCvfn wrote: post #118

As someone who attempted suicide almost ten years ago, I'm disheartened by how cold-hearted the comments on this article are. Accusations of certain wording being "woke" or "PC" and completely ignoring the substance of the article itself, as if the wording were the tragedy here. If we must have this discussion, I stopped using the phrase "committed suicide" when I found out it was a relic of when it was illegal and s…

I think the discussion is that “driven to suicide” would be a more appropriate term. Their deaths were not coincidental or incidental. It is an attempt to acknowledge that their act was the result of the actions of the post office and others.

A few comments are like that, yes, and I have no objections to that description. Most of the discussion though seems to be more like this:

> I guess some people take comfort in the idea that suicide is thrust on people and they take no responsibility for their actions.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44531844

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#238

Post by penguin_booze »

duncans wrote: post #111
ThisNameIsTaken wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is particularly striking about the scandal is the impact of the mini-series. From what I understand (as a foreigner to the UK) is that it was the mini-series that sparked national interest in the case. Without it, those involved would still be in a bureaucratic and legal nightmare, in which all institutions rejected their innocence claims, and hardly anyone would have been held accountable. See also the "Impact"…

It's worth pointing out that Mr Bates vs The Post Office screened in early 2024. The Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry was set up in 2020/2021 and the public hearings started in 2023. So it may have looked like "it was TV what done it" but the wheels of justice were turning long before the show came out.

Wheels; justice: all these are just weasel words. Litigation is an exclusive privilege of the rich. And prison, of the poor(er).

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#239

Post by skywhopper »

XTXinverseXTY wrote: post #228
jordanb wrote: post #191

I went on a deep dive on this scandal about a year or so ago. One thing that struck me is the class element. Basically, the Post Office leadership could not understand why someone would buy a PO franchise. It's a substantial amount of money up front, and people aren't allowed to buy multiple franchises, so every PO was an owner/operator position. Essentially people were "buying a job". The people in leadership couldn…

Forgive my indelicate question, but why would someone buy a PO franchise?

Some folks like running a small shop, being their own boss, and serving their neighborhood community.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#240

Post by nickelpro »

The bug is hardly the problem here, it is necessary but far from sufficient for something like this to happen.

The UK legal system's ability to prosecute and penalize people without anything more than circumstantial evidence makes it unfit for purpose. It should be an embarrassment to a country that considers itself a member of the developed Western world.

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