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AI coding tools can reduce productivity

secondthoughts.ai

221–230 of 284 posts

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#221

I finally took the plunge and did a big chunk of work in Cursor. It was pretty ideal: greenfield but with a very relevant example to slightly modify (the example pulled events over HTTP as a server and I wanted it to pull events over Google pub/sub instead). Over IDK, 2-3 hours I got something that seemed on its face to work, but: - it didn't use the pub/sub API correctly - the 1 low-coverage test it generated didn't…

You're using it wrong -- it's intended to be a conversational experience. There are so many techniques you can utilize to improve the output while retaining the mental model of codebase. Respectfully, this is user error.

Can you say more than literally "you're using it wrong"? Otherwise this is a no true scotsman (super common when LLM advocates are touting their newfound productivity). Here are my prompts, lightly redacted:

First prompt:

``` Build a new package at . Use the package at as an example. The new package should work like the package, but instead of receiving events over HTTP, it should receive events as JSON over a Google Pub/Sub topic. This is what one such event would look like:

{ /* some JSON */ } ```

My assumptions when I gave it the following prompt were wrong, but it didn't correct me (it actually does sometimes, so this isn't an unreasonable expectation):

``` The method will only process a single message from the subscription. Modify it to continuously process any messages received from the subscription. ```

These next 2 didn't work:

``` The context object has no method WithCancel. Simply use the ctx argument to the method above. ```

``` There's no need to attach this to the object; there's also no need for this field. Remove them. ```

At this point, I fix it myself and move on.

``` There's no need to use a waitgroup in , or to have that field on . Modify to not use a waitgroup. ```

``` There's no need to run the logic in inside an anonymous function on a goroutine. Remove that; we only need the code inside the for loop. ```

``` Using the package at as an example, add metrics and logging ```

This didn't work for esoteric reasons:

``` On line 122 you're casting ctx to , but that's already its type from this method's parameters. Remove this case and the error handling for when it fails. ```

...but this fixed it though:

``` Assume that ctx here is just like the ctx from , for example it already has a logger. ```

There were some really basic errors in the test code. I thought I would just ask it to fix them:

``` Fix the errors in the test code. ```

That made things worse, so I just told it exactly what I wanted:

``` and are integers, just use integers ```

I wouldn't call it a "conversation" per se, but this is essentially what I see Kenton Varda, Simon Willison, et al doing.

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#222

I think the dichotomy you see with how positive people are about ai has almost entirely to do with the kind of questions they ask. That seems obvious, but a consequence of that is that people who are sceptical of ai (like me) only use it when they've exhausted other resources (like google). You ask very specific questions where not a lot of documentation is available and inevetably even o3 ends up being pretty useles…

It's kind of true. I only use it for simple stuff that I don't have time for. For example, how to write a simple diagram in tikz. The Ai does the simple and busywork of providing a good enough approximation which I can tweak and get what I want.

For hard questions, I prefer to use my own skills, because AI often regurgitates what I'm already aware. I still ask AI in the off-chance it comes up with something cool, but most often, I have to do it myself.

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#223
post #16

What bothers me more than any of this particular discussion is that we seem to be incapable of determining programmer productivity in a meaningful way since my debut as a programmer 40 years ago.

I’m confused as to why anyone would think this would be possible to determine. Like can we determine the productivity of doctors, lawyers, journalists, or pastry chefs? What job out there is so simple that we can meaningfully measure all the positive and negative effects of the worker as well as account for different conditions between workers. I could probably get behind the idea that you could measure productivity…

Yet paradoxically, the user knows instinctively. I know exactly when I'll get my next medical checkup, and when the test results will arrive. I know if a software app improves my work, and what it will cost to get a paid license.

The hard thing is occupations where the quantity of effort is unrelated to the result due to the vast number of confounding factors.

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#224

I think the dichotomy you see with how positive people are about ai has almost entirely to do with the kind of questions they ask. That seems obvious, but a consequence of that is that people who are sceptical of ai (like me) only use it when they've exhausted other resources (like google). You ask very specific questions where not a lot of documentation is available and inevetably even o3 ends up being pretty useles…

I don't think that dichotomy is true at all, at least not with experienced software people. Many folks I know are skeptical of the hype, or maybe full on anti/distrustful, due to reasons I think are valid. But many of those same people have tried llm tools, maybe chatgpt or copilot or cursor, and recognize the value even w/ huge misgivings. Some of have gone further with tools like claude code and seen the real poten…

I use it very routinely to generate tikz diagrams. It is obviously wrong and I need to manually tweak a little bit. But the hardest part is often to get something working at first, and in this AI is first class. It gets me 90% there, and rest is me.

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#225
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are always tar pits of time where you are no better off with AI, but sometimes it's 20x. This is absurd measuring. You can’t in good faith claim a 20x improvement if it only happens “sometimes” and other times it’s a time sink. The more detail you keep providing in this thread, the clearer it becomes your assessment lands somewhere between the disingenuous and the delusional.

How do you measure 20x when someone says they do that? Does that mean you deliver the same amount of code in the same time with 20x less bugs? Or the same quality code in 20x less time? Or 10x less bugs in 2x less time?

[dead]

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the metric itself doesn't become a subject to optimization By making the metrics part of a sustaintable company-wide goal. If there's a company-wide goal to increase X kind of revenue by Y% making actionable targets on how a team can contribute (not lazy shit like "our changes should contribute Z% of that Y%"), and within that create for a person another smaller metric based on that.

This would be difficult to apply to R&D orgs or anything seen as a typical cost center. Also, medical facilities… you certainly could define it as profit, but that bothers me and many other people. You could define it as patients seen, or “cured” but that incentivizes very quick but probably poor care. You could define it as intensity of treatment or amount of care given, but you’d probably end up in a situation wher…

This is the kind of thing that pops up when you try to substitute metrics for judgment. It reminds me of the catastrophic fiscal and monetary policies that emerge from economic theories that rest on bad assumptions (like people being rational actors in an economic system) that are there to make the math work.

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are also other aspects: - Some people simply ask a lot more questions than others (this ignores whether they like or dislike AI), i.e. some people simply prefer to find things out more by themselves, and thus also use other resources like Google or Stack Overflow as a last resort. So their questions to an AI will likely be more complicated, because they already found out the easy parts by themselves. -…

> I expect the answers of the AI to be really good. If it isn't, having explained my problem to the AI was simply a waste of time. I find the worst part to be when it doesn't correct flaws in my assumptions. For example, yesterday I asked it "what is the difference between these two Datadog queries"? And it replied something that was semi-correct, but it didn't discover the fundamental flaw - that the first one wasn'…

I have found that o3, specifically, will tell me relevant information that I didn't ask for.

But most other models don't.

I do have a custom instruction in place to ask if I'm aware of concepts related to my question - perhaps in coming up with these, it notices when something relevant hasn't been mentioned.

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#230
post #88
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cringe when I see these numbers. 20 times better means that you can accomplish in two months what you would do in 4 years, which is ridiculus when said out loud. We can make it even more ridiculous by pointing out you would do in 3 years the work of working lifetime (60 years) I am wondering, what sort of tasks are you seeing these x20 boost?

It is amazing, cringe all you want :) I scoped out a body of work and even with the AI assisting on building cards and feature documentation, it came to about 2 to 4 weeks to implement. It was done in 2 days. The key I've found with working as fast as possible is to have planning sessions with Claude Code and make it challenge you and ask tons of questions. Then get it to break the work into 'cards' (think Jira, but…

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