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Measuring the impact of AI on experienced open-source developer productivity

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Re: Measuring the impact of AI on experienced open-source developer productivity

#321
post #38

Here's the full paper, which has a lot of details missing from the summary linked above: https://metr.org/Early_2025_AI_Experienced_OS_Devs_Study.pdf My personal theory is that getting a significant productivity boost from LLM assistance and AI tools has a much steeper learning curve than most people expect. This study had 16 participants, with a mix of previous exposure to AI tools - 56% of them had never used Curso…

I find the very popular response of "you're just not using it right" to be big copout for LLMs, especially at the scale we see today. It's hard to think of any other major tech product where it's acceptable to shift so much blame on the user. Typically if a user doesn't find value in the product, we agree that the product is poorly designed/implemented, not that the user is bad. But AI seems somehow exempt from this…

>It's hard to think of any other major tech product where it's acceptable to shift so much blame on the user.

Is that perhaps because of the nature of the category of 'tech peoduct'. In other domains, this certainly isn't the case. Especially if the goal is to get the best result instead of the optimum output/effort balance.

Musical instruments are a clear case where the best results are down to the user. Most crafts are similar. There is the proverb "A bad craftsman blames his tools" that highlights that there are entire fields where the skill of the user is considered to be the most important thing.

When a product is aimed at as many people as the marketers can find, that focus on individual ability is lost and the product targets the lowest common denominator.

They are easier to use, but less capable at their peak. I think of the state of LLMs analogous to home computing at a stage of development somewhere around Altair to TRS-80 level. These are the first ones on the scene, people are exploring what they are good for, how they work, and sometimes putting them to effective use in new and interesting ways. It's not unreasonable to expect a degree of expertise at this stage.

The LLM equivalent of a Mac will come, plenty of people will attempt to make one before it's ready. There will be a few Apple Newtons along the way that will lead people to say the entire notion was foolhardy. Then someone will make it work. That's when you can expect to use something without expertise. We're not there yet.

Re: Measuring the impact of AI on experienced open-source developer productivity

#322
post #38

Here's the full paper, which has a lot of details missing from the summary linked above: https://metr.org/Early_2025_AI_Experienced_OS_Devs_Study.pdf My personal theory is that getting a significant productivity boost from LLM assistance and AI tools has a much steeper learning curve than most people expect. This study had 16 participants, with a mix of previous exposure to AI tools - 56% of them had never used Curso…

What you described has been true of the adoption of every technology ever

Nothing new this time except for people who have no vision and no ability to work hard not “getting it” because they don’t have the cognitive capacity to learn

Re: Measuring the impact of AI on experienced open-source developer productivity

#323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the very popular response of "you're just not using it right" to be big copout for LLMs, especially at the scale we see today. It's hard to think of any other major tech product where it's acceptable to shift so much blame on the user. Typically if a user doesn't find value in the product, we agree that the product is poorly designed/implemented, not that the user is bad. But AI seems somehow exempt from this…

> It's hard to think of any other major tech product where it's acceptable to shift so much blame on the user. It's completely normal in development. How many years of programming experience you need for almost any language? How many days/weeks you need to use debuggers effectively? How long from the first contact with version control until you get git? I think it's the opposite actually - it's common that new classe…

Linus did not show up in front of congress talking about how dangerously powerful unregulated version control was to the entirety of human civilization a year before he debuted Git and charged thousands a year to use it.

Re: Measuring the impact of AI on experienced open-source developer productivity

#324
post #38

Here's the full paper, which has a lot of details missing from the summary linked above: https://metr.org/Early_2025_AI_Experienced_OS_Devs_Study.pdf My personal theory is that getting a significant productivity boost from LLM assistance and AI tools has a much steeper learning curve than most people expect. This study had 16 participants, with a mix of previous exposure to AI tools - 56% of them had never used Curso…

I find the very popular response of "you're just not using it right" to be big copout for LLMs, especially at the scale we see today. It's hard to think of any other major tech product where it's acceptable to shift so much blame on the user. Typically if a user doesn't find value in the product, we agree that the product is poorly designed/implemented, not that the user is bad. But AI seems somehow exempt from this…

New technologies that require new ways of thinking are always this way. "Google-fu" was literally a hirable career skill in 2004 because nobody knew how to search to get optimal outcomes. They've done alright improving things since then - let's see how good Cursor is in 10 years.

Re: Measuring the impact of AI on experienced open-source developer productivity

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, I'll have to try it out then. I've got a side project I've 3/4 finished and will let it loose on it. So are you using Claude Code via the max plan, Cursor, or what? I think I'd definitely hit AI news exhaustion and was viewing people raving about this agentic stuff as yet more AI fanbois. I'd just continued using the AI separate as setting up a new IDE seemed like too much work for the fractional gains I'd been s…

I had a bad time with Cursor. I use Claude Code inside of VS: Code. You don't necessarily need Max, but you can spend a lot of money very quickly on API tokens, so I'd recommend to anyone trying, start with the $20/month one, no need to spend a ton of money just to try something out. There is a skill gap, like, I think of it like vim: at first it slows you down, but then as you learn it, you end up speeding up. So yo…

Worth noting for the folks asking: there's an official Claude Code extension for VS Code now [0]. I haven't tried it personally, but that's mostly because I mainly use the terminal and vim.

[0]: https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=anthropi...

Re: Measuring the impact of AI on experienced open-source developer productivity

#326
post #38

Here's the full paper, which has a lot of details missing from the summary linked above: https://metr.org/Early_2025_AI_Experienced_OS_Devs_Study.pdf My personal theory is that getting a significant productivity boost from LLM assistance and AI tools has a much steeper learning curve than most people expect. This study had 16 participants, with a mix of previous exposure to AI tools - 56% of them had never used Curso…

I'm sympathetic to the argument re experience with the tools paying off, because my personal anecdata matches that. It hasn't been until the last 6 weeks, after watching a friend demo their workflow, that my personal efficiency has improved dramatically.

The most useful thing of all would have been to have screen recordings of those 16 developers working on their assigned issues, so they could be reviewed for varying approaches to AI-assisted dev, and we could be done with this absurd debate once and for all.

Re: Measuring the impact of AI on experienced open-source developer productivity

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's hard to think of any other major tech product where it's acceptable to shift so much blame on the user. It's completely normal in development. How many years of programming experience you need for almost any language? How many days/weeks you need to use debuggers effectively? How long from the first contact with version control until you get git? I think it's the opposite actually - it's common that new classe…

Linus did not show up in front of congress talking about how dangerously powerful unregulated version control was to the entirety of human civilization a year before he debuted Git and charged thousands a year to use it.

Ok. You seem to be taking about a completely different issue of regulation.

Re: Measuring the impact of AI on experienced open-source developer productivity

#328
post #38

Here's the full paper, which has a lot of details missing from the summary linked above: https://metr.org/Early_2025_AI_Experienced_OS_Devs_Study.pdf My personal theory is that getting a significant productivity boost from LLM assistance and AI tools has a much steeper learning curve than most people expect. This study had 16 participants, with a mix of previous exposure to AI tools - 56% of them had never used Curso…

I find the very popular response of "you're just not using it right" to be big copout for LLMs, especially at the scale we see today. It's hard to think of any other major tech product where it's acceptable to shift so much blame on the user. Typically if a user doesn't find value in the product, we agree that the product is poorly designed/implemented, not that the user is bad. But AI seems somehow exempt from this…

> It's hard to think of any other major tech product where it's acceptable to shift so much blame on the user.

Maybe, but it isn't hard to think of developer tools where this is the case. This is the entire history of editor and IDE wars.

Imagine running this same study design with vim. How well would you expect the not-previously-experienced developers to perform in such a study?

Re: Measuring the impact of AI on experienced open-source developer productivity

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's hard to think of any other major tech product where it's acceptable to shift so much blame on the user. It's completely normal in development. How many years of programming experience you need for almost any language? How many days/weeks you need to use debuggers effectively? How long from the first contact with version control until you get git? I think it's the opposite actually - it's common that new classe…

Linus did not show up in front of congress talking about how dangerously powerful unregulated version control was to the entirety of human civilization a year before he debuted Git and charged thousands a year to use it.

This seems like a non sequitur. What does this have to do with this thread?

Re: Measuring the impact of AI on experienced open-source developer productivity

#330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. For what it's worth, I've always thought that the more reasonable claim is that AI tools make poor-average developers more productive, not necessarily expert developers.

Personally I don't want poor-average developers to be more productive, I want them to be more expert

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