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Making Explainable Minesweeper

sublevelgames.github.io

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Re: Making Explainable Minesweeper

#31

Post by Bimos »

_9ptr wrote: post #5

In minesweeper online there's also a "no guessing" mode which, in my opinion, is much more interesting than the normal mode. It means that if you guess in a situation where you could have deduced the mines, you always get a mine. Conversely, if you really are in a guessing situation, you will never get a mine. I'm pretty sure the game calculates the unknown part of the map after each click anew.

I thought no guessing mode means the map is generated in such way that guessing is not needed to solve the whole board? (To those who didn't know the mode, it also forces you a starting point)

As an experiment, I tried clicking on a random position after clicking the starting point. And it is possible to that the position is safe. So I don't think the map in no guessing mode is dynamic.

Also in the help section: "In this mode, a starting position is provided, and you never need to guess to complete the board."

Re: Making Explainable Minesweeper

#32

Post by Doxin »

rtpg wrote: post #24

Many many years ago I remember playing a free minesweeper that had, among other things, hexagonal maps as an option, but the big thing was that it guaranteed that you would never need to guess. You could always figure out the answer, and I believe there was a mode where if you clicked in a way where you couldn't have deduced the answer it would put a mine in there to punish you. Anyone know what minesweeper software…

I don't know the name, but I distinctly recall a minesweeper clone that had hexagonal maps, triangular maps, and a bunch of other weird tilings.

Re: Making Explainable Minesweeper

#33

Post by rtpg »

Doxin wrote: post #32
rtpg wrote: post #24

Many many years ago I remember playing a free minesweeper that had, among other things, hexagonal maps as an option, but the big thing was that it guaranteed that you would never need to guess. You could always figure out the answer, and I believe there was a mode where if you clicked in a way where you couldn't have deduced the answer it would put a mine in there to punish you. Anyone know what minesweeper software…

I don't know the name, but I distinctly recall a minesweeper clone that had hexagonal maps, triangular maps, and a bunch of other weird tilings.

Yeah I think the one I played also had triangular maps.

Re: Making Explainable Minesweeper

#34

Post by badmintonbaseba »

mcmoor wrote: post #22
mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I looked at the code for this once. It's sort of a hack. It generates a random puzzle, tries to solve it with a deterministic backtracking(IIRC) solver that detects situations where it's stuck. If it is stuck, it shifts some mines around in the place where the solver got stuck, according to some heuristics, and keeps solving. It keeps doing this until the entire puzzle has been solved, verifying that the puzzle can b…

I tried some no-guess variants but somehow there's a kind of sterile feeling to it. For some reason it makes it more boring compared to vanilla variant. It of course excels when I'm getting frustrated at guesses and 50/50, but otherwise I play the normal minesweeper more.

It's an entirely a different metagame if the goal is to improve your personal best time over multiple games within a given time frame. Once you get good enough with the deterministic reasoning, the game transforms into probabilistic strategies for time saves in both the vanilla and the guaranteed solvable game, and at that point the two games are very different.

For the vanilla game the guesses become integral part of the game that you can strategize around. There are guesses where some squares are less likely to contain mines than others. You can also try to uncover guesses as early as possible in a game, so you don't waste too much time on a game that is doomed to fail.

Re: Making Explainable Minesweeper

#35

Post by badmintonbaseba »

greentec wrote: post #21
Unearned5161 wrote: post #19

Nice article, I wanted to point out though that your example board at the beginning has no such ambiguities or 50/50's. Here's a recreation of it so you can see for yourself, if you open it up from the bottom left as you did, the 1 2 1 leads to the board being solved rather quickly: https://agustinfitipaldi.com/minesweeper?seed=eyJ3aWR0aCI6OS...

Yes, that's right. I'll have to update my blog with additional information about this. Thank you!

BTW, you can also start from the top right with the two 1s. One of the rightmost two cells contains a mine, so the 3rd from the right can't.

Re: Making Explainable Minesweeper

#36

Post by tylervigen »

_9ptr wrote: post #5

In minesweeper online there's also a "no guessing" mode which, in my opinion, is much more interesting than the normal mode. It means that if you guess in a situation where you could have deduced the mines, you always get a mine. Conversely, if you really are in a guessing situation, you will never get a mine. I'm pretty sure the game calculates the unknown part of the map after each click anew.

How would the game know you are guessing?

Re: Making Explainable Minesweeper

#37

Post by jsnell »

tylervigen wrote: post #36
_9ptr wrote: post #5

In minesweeper online there's also a "no guessing" mode which, in my opinion, is much more interesting than the normal mode. It means that if you guess in a situation where you could have deduced the mines, you always get a mine. Conversely, if you really are in a guessing situation, you will never get a mine. I'm pretty sure the game calculates the unknown part of the map after each click anew.

How would the game know you are guessing?

By considering the bomb location notations you have made on the board.

Are they all valid, and do they prove that the location you're clicking on is empty? Then you're not guessing.

Are they invalid, or do they not prove that the location is empty? Then you're making a guess that should fail.

Are they valid, comprehensive (there are no more bombs you could mark), and prove that all you have left are random choices? Then clicking is you indicating that you've found all there is to find for now, not a "guess".

Re: Making Explainable Minesweeper

#38

Post by cam_l »

jsnell wrote: post #37
tylervigen wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would the game know you are guessing?

By considering the bomb location notations you have made on the board. Are they all valid, and do they prove that the location you're clicking on is empty? Then you're not guessing. Are they invalid, or do they not prove that the location is empty? Then you're making a guess that should fail. Are they valid, comprehensive (there are no more bombs you could mark), and prove that all you have left are random choices? T…

I never use the bomb notations and I have not noticed this behaviour. I wonder if that is why?

Anyway, with the no guessing mode i get more consistent times, and it's more fun/less frustrating. But I get faster times without it, just far more variance.

Re: Making Explainable Minesweeper

#39

Post by joe_guy »

rtpg wrote: post #24

Many many years ago I remember playing a free minesweeper that had, among other things, hexagonal maps as an option, but the big thing was that it guaranteed that you would never need to guess. You could always figure out the answer, and I believe there was a mode where if you clicked in a way where you couldn't have deduced the answer it would put a mine in there to punish you. Anyone know what minesweeper software…

You might be thinking of Tametsi. If not, it's a fantastic game to checkout.

Re: Making Explainable Minesweeper

#40

Post by doormatt »

jsnell wrote: post #6
npinsker wrote: post #4

For what it's worth, the way 14MV does hints is probably by just throwing the board into Z3 ( https://github.com/Z3Prover/z3 ) or some other constraint solver. Microsoft has already done all the hard work for you.

I doubt it. A guaranteed-solveable minesweeper scenario isn't just about the global board setup, but about what information is available when, and what order the solution is gone through. Bombe[0] is to my mind the definitive exploration of this concept. The tagline is "Minesweeper, but you only solve each situation once", which you do by writing these kinds of deduction rules with a fairly painful visual programming…

Bombe is easily one of my favorite games ever. 240+ hours of gameplay so far.
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