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Tell HN: I Lost Joy of Programming

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Re: Tell HN: I Lost Joy of Programming

#101

Post by bibin765 »

jon-wood wrote: post #24

Have you considered not doing that? It's not obligatory to have an LLM shit out unreviewed code for you, you're making a choice to do that, and you can make a choice not to. Review the code. Hell, maybe even write some code yourself. What you're describing is how I feel whenever I use an LLM for anything more than the most basic of tasks. I've gone from being a senior level software developer to managing a barely com…

Maybe everyone will now expect you to complete tasks as early as possible. They might also be evaluating the time needed to finish tasks, considering the help from AI.

Re: Tell HN: I Lost Joy of Programming

#103

Post by linuxscooter »

Nope.

I’ve always done software engineering that wasn’t programming: QA, QA automation, devops, operational sustaining (legacy maintenance).

The whole reason I got into software (besides it being easy money) was my childhood of typing in code from magazines and making it my own.

I didn’t go to university, and I didn’t focus personal time in developing coding skills enough to get me a job in it full-time. I know lots of the fundamentals I’m just not fast, and I fail to memorize lots of idiomatic stuff that’s necessary.

What changed for me? Two years ago I discovered Golang, love it. In the last few months I set aside my aversion for AI, and it’s amazing. I know AI code is mediocre sometimes, so is what I write myself. But the feedback loop is way encouraging. It has me engaged. I feel I can maintain the code. If I don’t feel comfortable with anything I take the time to review and rewrite, or run just that piece of code through a different AI.

Whether it’s right or wrong, I’m now engaged daily, instead of working a full day in “adjacent” engineering and then trying to push through tutorial hell.

Re: Tell HN: I Lost Joy of Programming

#104

Post by linuxscooter »

jvanderbot wrote: post #48
jon-wood wrote: post #24

Have you considered not doing that? It's not obligatory to have an LLM shit out unreviewed code for you, you're making a choice to do that, and you can make a choice not to. Review the code. Hell, maybe even write some code yourself. What you're describing is how I feel whenever I use an LLM for anything more than the most basic of tasks. I've gone from being a senior level software developer to managing a barely com…

Not OP, but you nailed my feelings perfectly. I did not like managing for precisely this reason, and it never got better. The trenches are for me. Re LLMs I love collaborative coding because I can sometimes pick up or teach new tricks. If I'm too tired to type the boilerplate I sometimes use an LLM. These are the only two redeeming values of LLM agents: they produce code or designs I can start from when I ask them to…

I’ve been writing oversized shell scripts for ages, often just for the moment in Bash.

Then if I need something similar for a Dockerfile, I’d write that also. The duplication is a sad feeling.

So I described what I wanted, /bin/sh with posix, detailed what both scripts do, and it merged both scripts without ever seeing their full codebases! (Both for work and my own code, I never share code unless it’s already in a public repository)

I fired up ShellCheck linter and zero issues. At work I Replaced both tech-debt laden scripts with a repo and people said they’d use it too, NICE cleanup, and how long did it take? :-)

Re: Tell HN: I Lost Joy of Programming

#105

Post by linuxscooter »

derekp7 wrote: post #73
jon-wood wrote: post #24

Have you considered not doing that? It's not obligatory to have an LLM shit out unreviewed code for you, you're making a choice to do that, and you can make a choice not to. Review the code. Hell, maybe even write some code yourself. What you're describing is how I feel whenever I use an LLM for anything more than the most basic of tasks. I've gone from being a senior level software developer to managing a barely com…

I take a hybrid approach. I will describe a simplified problem to the LLM, have it generate a well commented and reasonable approach for the problem. I then use that as a cheat sheet for implementing my actual code. This still gives me hands on codi and more control, without needing to agonize over the details of each coding technique.

This is me also.

I know if I leet code ground myself into the dirt, I’d get better, and more importantly: faster.

But there’s never been any payoff to me full-time coding.. not when the pay is close to coding, and my role wants me to address test tech debt or Nice To Haves tooling, and (until Go) I had to do my 9-5 work in a scripting language…

There’s now more days behind me than ahead, and I no longer want to understand low level details and theories about the kernel or TTY.

All progress is built on abstraction. It has to be.

Re: Tell HN: I Lost Joy of Programming

#106

Post by linuxscooter »

gwbas1c wrote: post #52
jon-wood wrote: post #24

Have you considered not doing that? It's not obligatory to have an LLM shit out unreviewed code for you, you're making a choice to do that, and you can make a choice not to. Review the code. Hell, maybe even write some code yourself. What you're describing is how I feel whenever I use an LLM for anything more than the most basic of tasks. I've gone from being a senior level software developer to managing a barely com…

I think you're on to something: It sounds like the developer needs to be more hands-on in making changes; as opposed to treating the AI like a subordinate with autonomy. --- For example: About two years ago I worked with a contractor who was a lot more junior than our team needed. I'd give him instructions, and then the next day spend about 2-3 hours fixing his code. In total, I was spending half of my time handholdi…

If you haven’t done so, try changing your prompt styles. It’s an assistant for me but I’m finding it needs less and less babysitting. What I just tried:

Ask it first to plan out a project you briefly described, focus on the planning, file structure is ok but no coding. Tell it what functionality is integrated, or what what should become a standalone module. Ask it to summarize.

I then start a new chat for the code, and tell it follow the summary. Tell it “before you make code, ask questions if there is commonly another way to do this.

Chances are you’ve done this way more than me and tried variations of this. But it’s working here as an assistant. I’m now doing wIdk I wasn’t hired for, and people are happy.

Re: Tell HN: I Lost Joy of Programming

#107

Post by yamatokaneko »

It’s not a perfect analogy, but I think there’s a parallel to coding.

Thanks to LLMs, I actually enjoy writing more than before. I spend less time typing and more time thinking about the core idea. Every time AI rewrites my messy draft, I find myself saying, “Yes—that’s exactly what I meant.” Then I get to fine-tune it and add my own voice, which makes the process fun.

I also love this quote from Paul Graham, "Writing, Briefly": “Writing doesn’t just communicate ideas; it generates them. If you’re bad at writing and don’t like to do it, you’ll miss out on most of the ideas writing would have generated.”

Re: Tell HN: I Lost Joy of Programming

#108

Post by jvanderbot »

linuxscooter wrote: post #104
jvanderbot wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP, but you nailed my feelings perfectly. I did not like managing for precisely this reason, and it never got better. The trenches are for me. Re LLMs I love collaborative coding because I can sometimes pick up or teach new tricks. If I'm too tired to type the boilerplate I sometimes use an LLM. These are the only two redeeming values of LLM agents: they produce code or designs I can start from when I ask them to…

I’ve been writing oversized shell scripts for ages, often just for the moment in Bash. Then if I need something similar for a Dockerfile, I’d write that also. The duplication is a sad feeling. So I described what I wanted, /bin/sh with posix, detailed what both scripts do, and it merged both scripts without ever seeing their full codebases! (Both for work and my own code, I never share code unless it’s already in a p…

Relating back to OP, that sounds like an early win on a long campaign to boredom. I hope you continue to enjoy it though, there certainly nothing inevitable about ennui.

Re: Tell HN: I Lost Joy of Programming

#109

Post by moomoo11 »

Winsaucerer wrote: post #17

Is AI genuinely that good for you all? I can't leave it to its own devices, I have to review everything because (from experience) I don't trust it. I think it's an amazing technological advancement, perhaps will go down as one of the top 10 in the history of our species. But I can't just "fire and forget". And that's not just because its output is often not the best, but also because by doing it myself it causes me t…

What you’re doing wrong is you’re working on complex stuff.

Re: Tell HN: I Lost Joy of Programming

#110

Post by jf22 »

graealex wrote: post #87
jon-wood wrote: post #24

Have you considered not doing that? It's not obligatory to have an LLM shit out unreviewed code for you, you're making a choice to do that, and you can make a choice not to. Review the code. Hell, maybe even write some code yourself. What you're describing is how I feel whenever I use an LLM for anything more than the most basic of tasks. I've gone from being a senior level software developer to managing a barely com…

> managing a barely competent junior developer who's only redeeming skill is the ability to type really, really quickly Hits the nail on the head. For an actual junior developer, they'd at least learn over time. With LLM, open up a new chat and you start with a new hire.

Most coding tools have rules or plan files that help provide context across chats.

I spend most of my time editing these files. It's as if I am training a junior dev.

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