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US Court nullifies FTC requirement for click-to-cancel

arstechnica.com

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Re: US Court nullifies FTC requirement for click-to-cancel

#191

Post by sneak »

delfinom wrote: post #165
pjmlp wrote: post #140

The consumer protection laws are so bad the other side of Atlantic. Most European countries, have their own version of consumer protection agencies, usually any kind of complaint gets sorted out, even if takes a couple months. If they fail for whatever reason, there is still the top European one. Most of the time I read about FTC, it appears to side with the wrong guys.

Not the FTC's fault. The problem is US congress has not functioned for 2 decades. They no longer pass actual laws. This means the FTC is stuck reinterpreting their existing powers to try and squeeze out regulation that they can but that's it.

If the FTC can’t do what the FTC is supposed to do, then that is the FTC’s fault for continuing to exist. It’s unfit for purpose and should be shut down.

Re: US Court nullifies FTC requirement for click-to-cancel

#192

Post by ordinaryradical »

ptero wrote: post #184
idiotsecant wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the century of American dominance is probably over. Maybe we can fight our way back to having a functional government, maybe not. I think either way our position in the world order is already diminished and will steadily diminish further. I can see a future where America is a strange backwater, reliant on resource extraction and rules over by a grubby and constantly shifting mafia state.

As an American, I would welcome the world without American domination. Or without any single country domination for that matter. Competition of systems is good for the world. It doesn't need to turn the US into some grubby mafia state. It could, but I think it is unlikely. But the road for both the US and the world IMO goes down before it goes up as many systems and alliances around the world that depend on US domina…

If it’s not America it will be China and I don’t think you want to live in that world.

Re: US Court nullifies FTC requirement for click-to-cancel

#193

Post by mrtksn »

pjmlp wrote: post #140

The consumer protection laws are so bad the other side of Atlantic. Most European countries, have their own version of consumer protection agencies, usually any kind of complaint gets sorted out, even if takes a couple months. If they fail for whatever reason, there is still the top European one. Most of the time I read about FTC, it appears to side with the wrong guys.

True but generally speaking American companies usually have much better customer service and better refund policies than European ones. The issues usually stem when a company corners the market or has no viable alternatives.

So maybe the American way of doing things can also work if a healthy competitive environment is preserved.

The problem lately is that American companies have become monopolies and the formula firms extracting profits or stock hikes for the shareholders dictate that they screw the user up until barely legal territory.

So maybe America can roll without consumer protection laws and agencies if they can fix the business environment.

They just need to find a way out of enshittification, a process US companies perfected.

Re: US Court nullifies FTC requirement for click-to-cancel

#194

Post by jdlshore »

braiamp wrote: post #164
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The FTC is required to conduct a preliminary regulatory analysis when a rule has an estimated annual economic effect of $100 million or more. The FTC estimated in a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) that the rule would not have a $100 million effect. > But an administrative law judge later found that the rule's impact surpassed the threshold, observing that compliance costs would exceed $100 million "unless each…

The fact that it takes more than 24 hours to put a 1 click cancel button is alien to me.

You must not work on these sorts of systems. It can easily take more than 24 hours. In case you’re genuinely interested in learning more, here’s how it works.

There are good reasons for it working this way, BTW. The needs of a company with hundreds or thousands of people are different than the needs of hobbyists and early-stage startups.

1. A user experience designer analyzes the user flow and decides where to put the cancellation button. They make decision about style, layout, and wording. This isn’t a ton of work, but something so critical to the company’s business and retention numbers will probably involve a lot of review, discussion, and bike shedding. This could easily take 24 people-hours of work on its own.

2. Somebody programs the front-end change. They probably have to put it behind a feature flag so it’s not visible until the back end is ready.

3. Somebody programs the back-end. They think about security, authentication, authorization, CSRF. That’s probably handled, but again, this is a critical feature and deserves extra care.

4. Somebody programs the interface to the company’s internal systems. They’re usually kind of a pain to work with. Billing, marketing, support, customer success. Something probably sends an email to the user. Maybe there’s a follow up flow to try to get them back with a special offer a month later. Etc.

5. The change is tested. Preferably with automated tests, but a feature like this has tendrils into systems throughout the company, and a lot of moving parts, so manual testing is also important. If it goes wrong, it’s a big deal, involving the potential for chargebacks and lawsuits, both of which are expensive at scale.

Throughout all this, you’re dealing with legacy code, because billing is one of the oldest systems the company has, and the one with the most risk of change, so the code is nasty and doesn’t follow current conventions. Every change is painful and tedious.

It’s alien to you that this could take more than 24 hours? At any company of size, I have trouble imagining it taking less.

Re: US Court nullifies FTC requirement for click-to-cancel

#195

Post by sneak »

DaSHacka wrote: post #180
idiotsecant wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the century of American dominance is probably over. Maybe we can fight our way back to having a functional government, maybe not. I think either way our position in the world order is already diminished and will steadily diminish further. I can see a future where America is a strange backwater, reliant on resource extraction and rules over by a grubby and constantly shifting mafia state.

And who would supersede the states by picking up the mantle?

The US wasn’t the dominant superpower due to cooperation or agreement or leadership, it was the result of pure technological force.

Oppenheimer, Teller, and countless nameless others at NASA and Lockheed and Boeing and DARPA.

The US built the best weapons, spy planes, launch vehicles, satellites, and communications systems, and was willing to take a no-holds-barred approach to geopolitical strategy. This led to a circumstance which it seems was unparalleled in history thus far.

Who else is able to commit such technological progress to being able to command the world order by edict?

China, perhaps, but I don’t see the next TSMC or SpaceX or OpenAI or Google starting there. Technology is the name of the game. (My own personal take is that mass scale reusable rockets is the key strategic piece to geopolitical dominance over the next 50-100 years, with perhaps the ability to effectively integrate AI as an alternate or close second.)

It may be that we never see a monolithic superpower of the same kind again for generations. The post ww2 world order was really very very kind to the USA.

Re: US Court nullifies FTC requirement for click-to-cancel

#196

Post by MSFT_Edging »

scrubs wrote: post #152
b00ty4breakfast wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

neoliberal deregulation and regulatory capture, not necessarily in that order, has basically killed federal consumer protection in the US.

And it can get worse. Over shooting right (left) invariably leads to overshoot left (right) which we absolutely do not need either. The American sense (when we get off our butts and do it) is common sense, slowly changing law that always apportions control in equal parts to accountability. It's the last part that is more galling (because increasingly we've failed) and ultimately will be the more decisive in any futur…

When has the US actually overshot left though? There was a short period of social justice awareness, but that didn't translate to actual leftwing economic legislation. Even protests and movements with left wing goals were co-opted by the nominally center-right establishment and neutered.

This both-sides stuff gets me, man. Our history is by and large very right wing and every time there's a flutter of left leaning ideas, people chalk it up to some far-left political success and therefore the far right backlash is deserved, as if things ever actually went left in the first place.

Re: US Court nullifies FTC requirement for click-to-cancel

#197

Post by DaSHacka »

ordinaryradical wrote: post #192
ptero wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American, I would welcome the world without American domination. Or without any single country domination for that matter. Competition of systems is good for the world. It doesn't need to turn the US into some grubby mafia state. It could, but I think it is unlikely. But the road for both the US and the world IMO goes down before it goes up as many systems and alliances around the world that depend on US domina…

If it’s not America it will be China and I don’t think you want to live in that world.

With their population pyramid I doubt it'd stay that way for long, though.

Re: US Court nullifies FTC requirement for click-to-cancel

#198

Post by xphilter »

MSFT_Edging wrote: post #196
scrubs wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it can get worse. Over shooting right (left) invariably leads to overshoot left (right) which we absolutely do not need either. The American sense (when we get off our butts and do it) is common sense, slowly changing law that always apportions control in equal parts to accountability. It's the last part that is more galling (because increasingly we've failed) and ultimately will be the more decisive in any futur…

When has the US actually overshot left though? There was a short period of social justice awareness, but that didn't translate to actual leftwing economic legislation. Even protests and movements with left wing goals were co-opted by the nominally center-right establishment and neutered. This both-sides stuff gets me, man. Our history is by and large very right wing and every time there's a flutter of left leaning id…

They’re talking about those times we let women vote, implemented social security and got rid of Jim Crow. Really overshot lol.

Re: US Court nullifies FTC requirement for click-to-cancel

#199

Post by xphilter »

sneak wrote: post #191
delfinom wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the FTC's fault. The problem is US congress has not functioned for 2 decades. They no longer pass actual laws. This means the FTC is stuck reinterpreting their existing powers to try and squeeze out regulation that they can but that's it.

If the FTC can’t do what the FTC is supposed to do, then that is the FTC’s fault for continuing to exist. It’s unfit for purpose and should be shut down.

The ftc isn’t supposed to create laws though. I tend to overshoot on the consumer’s side, but the ftc is overstepping with actions like this. There should be a law passed on this point and then ftc can enforce. Or ftc can sue based on existing law and let courts buy their interpretation.

Re: US Court nullifies FTC requirement for click-to-cancel

#200

Post by DaSHacka »

sneak wrote: post #195
DaSHacka wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And who would supersede the states by picking up the mantle?

The US wasn’t the dominant superpower due to cooperation or agreement or leadership, it was the result of pure technological force. Oppenheimer, Teller, and countless nameless others at NASA and Lockheed and Boeing and DARPA. The US built the best weapons, spy planes, launch vehicles, satellites, and communications systems, and was willing to take a no-holds-barred approach to geopolitical strategy. This led to a cir…

> It may be that we never see a monolithic superpower of the same kind again for generations. The post ww2 world order was really very very kind to the USA.

And why do you think it couldn't remain that way? Considering SpaceX, OpenAI, and Google were made far, far closer to today than to WWII, why would the assumption be that the output suddenly stops?

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