Hymn to Babylon, missing for a millennium, has been discovered • Hacker News Board

Re: Hymn to Babylon, missing for a millennium, has been discovered

#101

Post by drowsspa » Tue, Jul 08, 2025, 1:23 PM UTC

lo_zamoyski wrote: post #24

mlinhares wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Catholicism maintains it somehow by having "patron saints" and every city picking one up. Most cities in highly Catholic countries will have their own specific saint that they will have a special relationship with.

One difference is that saints are not deities, even if there may be a similar psychological need (for protection, help, etc) in play. Saints do not possess power of their own accord. They function as intercessors. They are still human beings, albeit in an elevated spiritual state or plane, so to speak (a saint is anyone who is saved from hell and in heaven; canonized saints are simply those who are known to be saints…

I don't know how it is in Europe but down here in Brazil they're lesser gods in all but name. I see no functional difference between their cults and the ancient pagan cults.

They're not gonna admit it because being monotheistic is kind of the whole point of Christianity. Just like they're gonna admit how the Trinity was just a cop-out to the obvious polytheism in the Bible and the traditions.

Re: Hymn to Babylon, missing for a millennium, has been discovered

#102

Post by graemep » Tue, Jul 08, 2025, 1:54 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #84

nrclark wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also worth noting - the Bible isn't a single book, and it never was. It's 66 or 73 separate books (depending on the flavor of Christianity), bound together in a single binding. Much more of an anthology than a single book. The books were separated in time, authorship, culture, and even language. Never intended to be taken together as a single document.

> Never intended to be taken together as a single document. Well, that's clearly untrue. People all over the world intend for you to do that right now.

Obviously not the intent of the original authors or the people who decided to compile these documents into an authoritative anthology.

Not convinced "all over the world" as a fair representation. Biblical literalists treat it as a single work, and they are mostly American or follow American leadership and tradition.

They also usually pick a particular version of "the Bible". Martin Luther's version, which was the Catholic version with some bits taken out. They also usually regard the Catholics who compiled that particular version as heretics. They also usually prefer a particular 17th century translation (so missing a lot of more recent scholarship and discoveries), and sometimes even a particular late 19th century (I think?) edition of that translation.

The preference for the KJV is quite amusing given it means social conservatives who presumably vote Republican are relying on the authority of a gay monarch.

Re: Hymn to Babylon, missing for a millennium, has been discovered

#103

Post by dragontamer » Tue, Jul 08, 2025, 1:54 PM UTC

bee_rider wrote: post #36

dragontamer wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Monotheism elevates godhood in many regards. In Polytheistic culture, gods fight and gods die. Zeus eats his (and thus kills) his father Chronos. Thor dies in Ragnarok. In Monotheistic culture, the one true God is above all else. As it turns out, different Monotheistic cultures can then cooperate as it's an argument over what this one true God believes (Catholics vs Muslims). Then we get into weird blends like Hindu…

> Polytheism is likely flawed as an organizational concept because it's clear that gods were creations of man. Monotheism flips it and makes God the master of the universe while man struggles to understand the nature of God. I don’t think that’s true of polytheism at all. That the gods aren’t everywhere or all-powerful doesn’t mean they were invented by the local humans, just that they were discovered by them. They j…

> I’m not sure what it means to be “flawed as an organizational concept.” States that had polytheistic religions as the main one stuck around for a long time of course. It is hard to say what’s predictive and what’s a coincidence in history I guess.

Romans would have had to integrate and work with many pantheons due to the reach of their empire. Obviously they were cool with the Greek gods for the most part, but what happened when the Romans encountered the Egyptian gods?

Suddenly seeing gods in a new light would cast some doubt on whether or not Helios / Apollo was really pulling a chariot across the sky each morning, as it's the Sun God Ra who blessed Egypt.

I'd imagine the Egyptian gods would be a novelty to Romans and I'm deeply curious how humans in antiquity would have tried to create a multi culture that works together.

But in my eyes.... As different pantheons integrated with each other, it immediately becomes clear that the Pantheon consisting of THE God and one and only would win out.

Not only does 'One God' solve the issue of the different creation myths (ex: you misunderstand but we both believe in the same One God), it also leads to the 'Ultimate, most powerful' concept of a God above all other gods.

I presume that the simplest gods (ie: Sun God, Sky God, Sea God) would have lasted the longest as cultures met and integrated with each other, as almost everyone would worship the sun or sky or sea. But an ultimate God for everything is still a seemingly more elegant solution to the idea of worship.

----------

But yes, this could be modern bias and could be seen as a silly idea 1000 years from now. But it is my opinion and understanding of how cultures would interact in my mental simulation of antiquity.

----------

So that's where I mean with Hindus coming up with 'Jesus is an Avatar of Vishnu' thing. Different cultures need to adapt and integrate with other concepts of gods and religion to sustain in the long run. So it's not impossible for a modern polytheistic religion to exist today and feel consistent with the world or other cultures, Hinduism perfectly shows that off.

But maybe I'm biased because Hinduism is the most prominent modern Polytheistic Pantheon and maybe the Pantheons 1000 or 3000 years ago made different arguments.

Re: Hymn to Babylon, missing for a millennium, has been discovered

#104

Post by smithkl42 » Tue, Jul 08, 2025, 2:34 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #82

schuyler2d wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to completely refute this because I'm also an amateur and there are a lot of instabilities of consensus, but Baal was at least also the son of El in Canaanite religion which predated an Israeli kingdom. My understanding is more that Yahvists had more nomadic origins and populated (/conquered, possibly the Levites[1]) a Canaanite cultural context and then there was religious syncreticism and interest in m…

> Baal was at least also the son of El in Canaanite religion which predated an Israeli kingdom Where are you getting this from?

The Wikipedia article is a good place to start:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal

Like all matters concerning the gods in the ancient near east, it's complex, and every answer has to be qualified. So apparently in some traditions, Baal was the son of Dagan (another fertility god), and in some the son of El (the head of the Canaanite pantheon, often identified with Yahweh even by orthodox Yahwists).

Re: Hymn to Babylon, missing for a millennium, has been discovered

#105

Post by smithkl42 » Tue, Jul 08, 2025, 2:57 PM UTC

griffzhowl wrote: post #97

smithkl42 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Baal" was less a name than a title. In modern Hebrew, it just means "lord" or "husband". It was also apparently a title that could, at some stages of Israel's history, even be applied to YHWH, much like "Adonay" ("My lord"). For instance, the individuals named "Mephibosheth" and "Ish-bosheth" (two of the sons of Saul, a clear if imperfect Yahwist) were originally named "Meribaal" and "Ish-baal". Whoever put together…

There's also evidence that even the exclusive worship of YHWH is something that's written in to the history at a later date, e.g. the Elephantine papyri predate any known manuscript of the Hebrew bible, and seem to show a polytheistic community of Jews in Egypt in the fifth century BC. This community was in contact with the Jerusalem temple, and there's no suggestion in their correspondence that what they were doing…

I don't know that I would draw that sharp of a distinction between archaeological and Biblical evidence. Pretty much every strata of the Bible that we have, from pretty much every age, assumes that even Yahweh's worshipers are aware of and frequently worshiping other gods. Rachel has her period on a pile of household idols (Gen. 31:26-35). Jacob gives up all his household's idols at God's request (Gen. 35:1-4). The Israelites in the desert worship first a golden calf (Ex. 32) and then the Baal of Peor (Numbers 25). David's wife Michal has an idol just sitting around, available to be used in a subterfuge (1 Sam. 19:11-17). And that's before we get to the prophets, whose message everywhere assumes that other gods are present in Israelite civil religion.

The question isn’t whether ancient Israelites worshiped other gods. Every single source we have, including the Bible, says that they did. The real question is how early and how consistently such behavior was objected to, and on what grounds. And there, the evidence shows that even the earliest traditions seem to expect loyalty to YHWH alone, even if they don’t always explain why. Over time, those objections become sharper, more theological, and more absolute. But there is no point in the biblical tradition, early or late, where YHWH is not a jealous God; just as there is no point where he doesn’t have cause to be.

Re: Hymn to Babylon, missing for a millennium, has been discovered

#106

Post by oh_fiddlesticks » Tue, Jul 08, 2025, 4:38 PM UTC

smithkl42 wrote: post #105

griffzhowl wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also evidence that even the exclusive worship of YHWH is something that's written in to the history at a later date, e.g. the Elephantine papyri predate any known manuscript of the Hebrew bible, and seem to show a polytheistic community of Jews in Egypt in the fifth century BC. This community was in contact with the Jerusalem temple, and there's no suggestion in their correspondence that what they were doing…

I don't know that I would draw that sharp of a distinction between archaeological and Biblical evidence. Pretty much every strata of the Bible that we have, from pretty much every age, assumes that even Yahweh's worshipers are aware of and frequently worshiping other gods. Rachel has her period on a pile of household idols (Gen. 31:26-35). Jacob gives up all his household's idols at God's request (Gen. 35:1-4). The I…

[dead]

Re: Hymn to Babylon, missing for a millennium, has been discovered

#107

Post by cogman10 » Tue, Jul 08, 2025, 4:38 PM UTC

exceptione wrote: post #87

schuyler2d wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's definitely some relatable and transmitted stories like the flood, etc. However, the Levant and Egyptian gods "grew up" in different contexts than Mesopotamia. Egypt was pretty centralized from the beginning and their gods were not based on cities. "El" means mountain and Baal was a storm god -- neither of which has (to my understanding) any trace to specific cities. That said, I agree there was some idea of a…

> YHWH living in the Arc so they could carry Him into battle. What story do you refer to?

https://biblehub.com/topical/ttt/a/ark_of_the_covenant_was_c...

Re: Hymn to Babylon, missing for a millennium, has been discovered

#108

Post by griffzhowl » Tue, Jul 08, 2025, 4:59 PM UTC

smithkl42 wrote: post #105

griffzhowl wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also evidence that even the exclusive worship of YHWH is something that's written in to the history at a later date, e.g. the Elephantine papyri predate any known manuscript of the Hebrew bible, and seem to show a polytheistic community of Jews in Egypt in the fifth century BC. This community was in contact with the Jerusalem temple, and there's no suggestion in their correspondence that what they were doing…

I don't know that I would draw that sharp of a distinction between archaeological and Biblical evidence. Pretty much every strata of the Bible that we have, from pretty much every age, assumes that even Yahweh's worshipers are aware of and frequently worshiping other gods. Rachel has her period on a pile of household idols (Gen. 31:26-35). Jacob gives up all his household's idols at God's request (Gen. 35:1-4). The I…

> The real question is how early and how consistently such behavior was objected to, and on what grounds.

Yes, ok. I'm claiming that the Elephantine papyri show no direct evidence that it was objected to in the late fifth century BC.

There might be more indirect evidence which is more a matter of interpretation, e.g. some claim the other gods' names are really names of aspect of YHW, and it's noteworthy that in the letter petitioning the Jerusalem temple for support in rebuilding the Elephantine temple, no god other than YHW is mentioned. But I think it's hard to make a definitive case either way. Probably the more you look into it the more complicated it becomes, like everything

Re: Hymn to Babylon, missing for a millennium, has been discovered

#109

Post by relevant_stats » Tue, Jul 08, 2025, 5:14 PM UTC

defrost wrote: post #72

FridayoLeary wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's known as the Dark Ages for a reason. Society regressed in most ways. Maybe because of the collapse of the Roman Empire? Europe only started finding their feet during the Reneissance.

Why are the European "Dark Ages" considered a misnomer? https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/235w3l/why_a...

I wouldn't pay too much attention to answers from this respectable subreddit when they express more what is a historiographic opinion than a fact. And when at the same time they are fighting strawmen.

The European Dark Ages narrative was indeed overblown and needed correction. But this correction went too far. It seems to be now at the stage of explicit and vigorous denial of any downfall of fortune in the Western ex-Roman provinces. I'd posit that such a denial is even more overblown than the initial myth it aimed to correct.

I can offer you a link to an author arguing for this position: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/15/were-there-dark-ages/

Re: Hymn to Babylon, missing for a millennium, has been discovered

#110

Post by anthk » Tue, Jul 08, 2025, 6:25 PM UTC

lo_zamoyski wrote: post #66

sapphicsnail wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pagan gods are personifications of natural forces, hence Thales's famous remark that "the world is full of gods". There were all kinds of gods. The Christian conception of God is taken from "pagan" philosophers. There's also a difference between theologian's/philosopher's conception of the Divine and religion and how lay people actually understood their faith. Even early Christians were divided on how they understo…

> There were all kinds of gods. And if you look at all those quintessentially pagan gods of the myths, you will find that they share this in common: that they are beings among many. > The Christian conception of God is taken from "pagan" philosophers. I'm not sure what you're implying, but traditional Christian theology draws from both biblical sources and philosophical analysis, and yes, that includes the philosophi…

Logos it's like eval/apply under Lisp.