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The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

bbc.com

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Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#41

Post by kragen »

owenversteeg wrote: post #38
kragen wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you make molasses bandages to speed wound healing, though? Honey really seems to have antimicrobial properties that go way beyond just low water activity and low pH, and in particular the peroxide production seems to be important. It does seem plausible that some wines might last longer than honey.

After doing some more reading, I think you might be right. I've been looking at various sugary solutions such as molasses and it seems that it's not uncommon for them to be sold with mold inhibitors such as propanoic acid. I suspect the hydrogen peroxide might play a role, but it's not very stable, I wonder how long it lasts in the honey. I'm still putting my money on the wine as far as long term storage goes, but I…

I didn't know that about molasses! It wouldn't be surprising actually if bees were synthesizing specifically propanoate to add to the honey and that nobody had noticed yet. But there are probably other molecules that would work at lower doses that they might use instead.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#42

Post by Analemma_ »

loeg wrote: post #39
johncole wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember having small kids we took this very seriously. I always wondered if this was just another overprotective order, or could really be an issue.

https://parentdata.org/honey-botulism-babies/ > Infantile botulism is extremely rare. There are an estimated 100 cases per year in the U.S., among approximately 4 million children in the age range under 1. That’s a risk of 1 in 40,000. This is somewhat less likely than the chance of visiting the ER for a blanket-related injury in a given year (yes, I looked that up, and I do think it’s a good comparison). > ... In an…

I'm not sure that number is meaningful without knowing how many parents are giving their infants honey. Granted I'm in a high-income, high-education area, but at least in my bubble, "don't give babies honey" seems to be common knowledge, so it's possible there are relatively few instances and a high percentage result in complications.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#43

Post by positr0n »

vlovich123 wrote: post #12
kragen wrote: post #11

This story can be summarized as "Low water activity and low pH keep honey fresh permanently." The other 14 paragraphs are just filler. Moreover, even that summary is factually incorrect; low water activity and low pH don't come close to explaining honey's astounding shelf life, which amounts to centuries in many cases. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey#Preservation in particular mentions gluconic acid and hydrogen…

Are you sure this isn’t just the Gell-Mann effect? It sounds like you’re probably better informed about this than the typical person and might be expecting a lot more detail than a newspaper would be endeavoring to try to convey. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gell-Mann_amnesia_effect

Isn’t the entire point of the Gell Man amnesia effect that all news is low quality, you just only realize it for topics you know a lot about?

And OP evidently knows a lot about honey :)

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#44

Post by ByteDrifter »

cypherpunks01 wrote: post #28

This article is missing what I think is a pretty important PSA on the topic of bacteria in honey: Honey commonly contains small amounts of the anaerobic bacteria Clostridium botulinum, which causes botulism. This is why you should not feed honey to infants, because their immune systems cannot safely handle any amount of it yet. Even though the levels apparently are small enough for the rest of humans to consume worry…

When my kid was under one year old, we were especially careful about this we didn’t let her have even a tiny bit of honey. It really drove home the idea that everything has two sides. Honey can sit on a shelf for years without spoiling, but it can still be dangerous for the most vulnerable. It’s a reminder that just because something is natural and long lasting doesn’t mean it’s safe for everyone.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#46

Post by filterfish »

__mharrison__ wrote: post #25

Recently went through first aid training and the instructor claimed putting honey on wounds would help them heal faster. (Sample size 1) I tried it on myself and a wound that was stubborn about healing was better very quickly.

I had a planter wart surgically removed which they packed with Manuka honey and because it's a deep open wound it needs to heal from the inside. I changed the dressing and repacked it every few days for weeks and the wound was absolutely pristine ever time.

I live in the tropics where people die because due to infection which makes it even more interesting that they use honey.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#47

Post by AbortedLaunch »

repeekad wrote: post #31
cypherpunks01 wrote: post #28

This article is missing what I think is a pretty important PSA on the topic of bacteria in honey: Honey commonly contains small amounts of the anaerobic bacteria Clostridium botulinum, which causes botulism. This is why you should not feed honey to infants, because their immune systems cannot safely handle any amount of it yet. Even though the levels apparently are small enough for the rest of humans to consume worry…

same with immunocompromised folks, though all that only applies to raw honey; pasteurized honey is more common in grocery stores and totally safe

I would not expect this to make a difference as pasteurization does not inactivate Clostridium endospores.

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#48

Post by bravesoul2 »

loeg wrote: post #39
johncole wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember having small kids we took this very seriously. I always wondered if this was just another overprotective order, or could really be an issue.

https://parentdata.org/honey-botulism-babies/ > Infantile botulism is extremely rare. There are an estimated 100 cases per year in the U.S., among approximately 4 million children in the age range under 1. That’s a risk of 1 in 40,000. This is somewhat less likely than the chance of visiting the ER for a blanket-related injury in a given year (yes, I looked that up, and I do think it’s a good comparison). > ... In an…

A truncated version of Bayes used here:

A=Infantile botulism

B=Kid eats honey

P(A|!B) = P(A) * (1 - P(B|A))

Not sure it is correct!

The ACX signature says:

P(A|B) = [P(A)*P(B|A)]/P(B)

So

P(A|!B) = [P(A)*P(!B|A)]/P(!B)

= (1/40000) * .8 / ???

??? Is very small though if people take the medical advice.

Their number assumes nobody follows the advice!

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#49

Post by filterfish »

nullwarp wrote: post #37
__mharrison__ wrote: post #25

Recently went through first aid training and the instructor claimed putting honey on wounds would help them heal faster. (Sample size 1) I tried it on myself and a wound that was stubborn about healing was better very quickly.

I've had great success with using propolis[0] on burns and wounds. Definitely anecdotal but the ones I've used it on have definitely healed faster. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propolis

https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD...

Re: The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long

#50

Post by tayo42 »

Analemma_ wrote: post #42
loeg wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://parentdata.org/honey-botulism-babies/ > Infantile botulism is extremely rare. There are an estimated 100 cases per year in the U.S., among approximately 4 million children in the age range under 1. That’s a risk of 1 in 40,000. This is somewhat less likely than the chance of visiting the ER for a blanket-related injury in a given year (yes, I looked that up, and I do think it’s a good comparison). > ... In an…

I'm not sure that number is meaningful without knowing how many parents are giving their infants honey. Granted I'm in a high-income, high-education area, but at least in my bubble, "don't give babies honey" seems to be common knowledge, so it's possible there are relatively few instances and a high percentage result in complications.

Whole food crunchy Instagram grifters push that infants should eat honey

Though tbh do people really eat that much honey? I only have some in my kitchen to have with tea when I have a cold. Other then that I almost never use it.

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