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Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

archaeologymag.com

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Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#41

Post by bjornsing »

contrarian1234 wrote: post #39
jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

I read that the native american peoples that lives in the San Francisco area never invented pottery. They boiled water in tightly woven baskets. Sure you have a 100C heatsink within millimeters, but I still find it surprising that the outside layer of the basket wouldn't burn away slowly.

> Sure you have a 100C heatsink within millimeters, but I still find it surprising that the outside layer of the basket wouldn't burn away slowly.

Probably because the water slowly permeates through the outside layer of the basket and evaporates there. A lot of energy can be absorbed that way.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#42

Post by cdrini »

b112 wrote: post #38
cdrini wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both of those things can be true. Just because they didn't have language, doesn't mean they couldn't communicate, it just means they could likely only communicate primarily by showing instead of telling. And it's also clear why being able to communicate with language would indeed offer quite the competitive edge over that system.

During a period of high trust, I've watched crows training their young via showing. While crows have "crafty" intelligence, neanderthals would be more apt at this. But really, the logical first language would be gesture, an extension of already existing body language. And such language is employed by humans when hunting, at war, whenever quiet is preferred. Even a gesture language of a few dozen concepts is almost au…

Very cool anecdote! And agreed, I think we're being a bit "handwavy" about what we mean when we say "language"; it seems like more of a spectrum. I'm not sure where we draw the line between, say, language that animals use which, to the best of our knowledge, do not show complex/abstract communication, and human languages. And who knows where Neanderthal language/communication would fall on that spectrum!

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#43

Post by slow_typist »

ethan_smith wrote: post #32
jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

Stone boiling (dropping heated rocks into water-filled containers) was also a widespread pre-pottery technique that Neanderthals likely employed alongside the hide/bark methods you mentioned.

+1 You can even dig a hole into ground and seal it with clay. It’s a well known survival technique.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#44

Post by contrarian1234 »

Roark66 wrote: post #15

And how could they've done this without language? I've heard this statement that neanderthals were "outcompeted" because homo sapiens had language and they did not (something about the way their anatomy didn't allow for making complex sounds). I call BS on that now. You can't do this kind of stuff without ability to communicate your intentions, future plans, rewards for other people and so on. Next we'll discover the…

Do you think a community of deaf people wouldn't be able to do it? :)

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#45

Post by MPSimmons »

agumonkey wrote: post #40
jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

So the heat transfer through the material to the water "fast" enough so that it doesn't char at all ? Makes sense but still surprising.

Yep. Lots of examples on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV2gsWHhDhY

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#46

Post by slow_typist »

jl6 wrote: post #36
Roark66 wrote: post #15

And how could they've done this without language? I've heard this statement that neanderthals were "outcompeted" because homo sapiens had language and they did not (something about the way their anatomy didn't allow for making complex sounds). I call BS on that now. You can't do this kind of stuff without ability to communicate your intentions, future plans, rewards for other people and so on. Next we'll discover the…

It seems weird to think there needs to be a major biological distinction to explain the idea of being outcompeted. Modern humans outcompete each other at various things all the time, right now (peacefully and non-peacefully) and it’s not because of any differences as drastic as having language vs not having language.

And neanderthalensis was not outcompeted, their genes survived in Homo sapiens until today.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#47

Post by hammock »

pbmonster wrote: post #10
ricksunny wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still struggle with the repeated assertions from the scicommss set that the 'neanderthals died out' or 'humans outcompeted neanderthals who went extinct', while at the same time acknowledging that 3% of DNA of everyone outside the African content is neanderthal. With that being the limit of 'the data' generally cited at hadn't, wouldn't a gradual, passively amicable merging (e.g. absorption) be just as explanatory…

I think it's because that 3% number is so small, it actually comes down to "outcompeted". A merger of two equally fit sub-species would result in more DNA persisting.

There are a number of ethnic groups (not species or subspecies, I realize) that are less than 3% of the gene pool today (and happened over a much shorter timespan I would suppose) such as Irish, Jewish, Armenian, etc. Would they be considered having been outcompeted at this point?

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#48

Post by poulpy123 »

While the discovery is great, there are quotes that are very clickbaity like "They understood both the nutritional value of fat and how to access it efficiently.”

No they didn't understand the nutritional value better than any other homo something before or after, or even any carnivorous animals. It's just that evolution engineered them to look for food everywhere. For example the bearded vulture diet is based on bone and bone marrow, it's not because it understands the nutritional value of bone marrow better than the other birds but because all carnivorous animals evolved to eat fat, and evolution provided a way for this bird to get the marrow more easily than the others.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#49

Post by poulpy123 »

kadoban wrote: post #27
jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

Is it me or is it odd that that first paper doesn't seem to cite any source for the misconception they're trying to argue against? I don't see any cites for people who believed that boiling could not happen in fragile containers. So my question would be: how many anthropologists believed that, and when did that stop being a majority belief, if it ever was?

Honestly just ask people around you if you can boil water in a plastic or paper bag

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#50

Post by thfuran »

poulpy123 wrote: post #48

While the discovery is great, there are quotes that are very clickbaity like "They understood both the nutritional value of fat and how to access it efficiently.” No they didn't understand the nutritional value better than any other homo something before or after, or even any carnivorous animals. It's just that evolution engineered them to look for food everywhere. For example the bearded vulture diet is based on bon…

Neanderthals were certainly smart enough to have more understanding of dietary needs than a vulture does. And "any homo something before or after" includes us today. While it might be reasonable to say there are things we don't fully understand about the way fat affects the body, we do understand the nutritional value of fat.
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