The author seems to want to label any discourse as “anthropomorphizing”. The word “goal” stood out to me: the author wants us to assume that we're anthropomorphizing as soon as we even so much as use the word “goal”. A simple breadth-first search that evaluates all chess boards and legal moves, but stops when it finds a checkmate for white and outputs the full decision tree, has a “goal”. There is no anthropomorphizing here, it's just using the word “goal” as a technical term. A hypothetical AGI with a goal like paperclip maximization is just a logical extension of the breadth-first search algorithm. Imagining such an AGI and describing it as having a goal isn't anthropomorphizing.
A non-anthropomorphized view of LLMs
161–170 of 432 posts
Re: A non-anthropomorphized view of LLMs
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think anthropomorphizing LLMs is useful, not just a marketing tactic. A lot of intuitions about how humans think map pretty well to LLMs, and it is much easier to build intuitions about how LLMs work by building upon our intuitions about how humans think than by trying to build your intuitions from scratch. Would this question be clear for a human? If so, it is probably clear for an LLM. Did I provide enough contex…
You think it's useful because Big Corp sold you that lie. Wait till the disillusionment sets in.
No, I think it's useful because it is useful, and I've made use of it a number of times.
Re: A non-anthropomorphized view of LLMs
#163I have the technical knowledge to know how LLMs work, but I still find it pointless to not anthropomorphize, at least to an extent. The language of "generator that stochastically produces the next word" is just not very useful when you're talking about, e.g., an LLM that is answering complex world modeling questions or generating a creative story. It's at the wrong level of abstraction, just as if you were discussing…
I get the impression after using language models for quite a while that perhaps the one thing that is riskiest to anthropomorphise is the conversational UI that has become the default for many people.
A lot of the issues I'd have when 'pretending' to have a conversation are much less so when I either keep things to a single Q/A pairing, or at the very least heavily edit/prune the conversation history. Based on my understanding of LLM's, this seems to make sense even for the models that are trained for conversational interfaces.
so, for example, an exchange with multiple messages, where at the end I ask the LLM to double-check the conversation and correct 'hallucinations', is less optimal than something like asking for a thorough summary at the end, and then feeding that into a new prompt/conversation, as the repetition of these falsities, or 'building' on them with subsequent messages, is more likely to make them a stronger 'presence' and as a result perhaps affect the corrections.
I haven't tested any of this thoroughly, but at least with code I've definitely noticed how a wrong piece of code can 'infect' the conversation.
Re: A non-anthropomorphized view of LLMs
#164I have the technical knowledge to know how LLMs work, but I still find it pointless to not anthropomorphize, at least to an extent. The language of "generator that stochastically produces the next word" is just not very useful when you're talking about, e.g., an LLM that is answering complex world modeling questions or generating a creative story. It's at the wrong level of abstraction, just as if you were discussing…
This is why I actually really love the description of it as a "Shoggoth" - it's more abstract, slightly floaty but it achieves the purpose of not treating and anthropomising it as a human being while not treating LLMs as a collection of predictive words.
Re: A non-anthropomorphized view of LLMs
#165I have the technical knowledge to know how LLMs work, but I still find it pointless to not anthropomorphize, at least to an extent. The language of "generator that stochastically produces the next word" is just not very useful when you're talking about, e.g., an LLM that is answering complex world modeling questions or generating a creative story. It's at the wrong level of abstraction, just as if you were discussing…
I've said that before: we have been anthropomorphizing computers since the dawn of information age. - Read and write - Behaviors that separate humans from animals. Now used for input and output. - Server and client - Human social roles. Now used to describe network architecture. - Editor - Human occupation. Now a kind of software. - Computer - Human occupation! And I'm sure people referred their cars and ships as 'he…
You are conflating anthropomorphism with personification. They are not the same thing. No one believes their guitar or car or boat is alive and sentient when they give it a name or talk to or about it.
https://www.masterclass.com/articles/anthropomorphism-vs-per...
Re: A non-anthropomorphized view of LLMs
#166Re: A non-anthropomorphized view of LLMs
#167People anthropomorphize just about anything around them. People talk about inanimate objects like they are persons. Ships, cars, etc. And of course animals are well in scope for this as well, even the ones that show little to no signs of being able to reciprocate the relationship (e.g. an ant). People talk to their plants even. It's what we do. We can't help ourselves. There's nothing crazy about it and most people a…
> People anthropomorphize just about anything around them.
They do not, you are mixing up terms.
> People talk about inanimate objects like they are persons. Ships, cars, etc.
Which is called “personification”, and is a different concept from anthropomorphism.
Effectively no one really thinks their car is alive. Plenty of people think the LLM they use is conscious.
https://www.masterclass.com/articles/anthropomorphism-vs-per...
Re: A non-anthropomorphized view of LLMs
#168Earlier quoted context omitted.
When I see these debates it's always the other way around - one person speaks colloquially about an LLM's behavior, and then somebody else jumps on them for supposedly believing the model is conscious, just because the speaker said "the model thinks.." or "the model knows.." or whatever. To be honest the impression I've gotten is that some people are just very interested in talking about not anthropomorphizing AI, an…
Respectfully, that is a reflection of the places you hang out in (like HN) and not the reality of the population. Outside the technical world it gets much worse. There are people who killed themselves because of LLMs, people who are in love with them, people who genuinely believe they have “awakened” their own private ChatGPT instance into AGI and are eschewing the real humans in their lives.
Naturally I'm aware of those things, but I don't think TFA or GGP were commenting on them so I wasn't either.
Re: A non-anthropomorphized view of LLMs
#169Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe the important thing is that we don't imbue the machine with feelings or morals or motivation: it has none.
If we developed feelings, morals and motivation due to them being good subgoals for primary goals, survival and procreation why couldn't other systems do that. You don't have to call them the same word or the same thing, but feeling is a signal that motivates a behaviour in us, that in part has developed from generational evolution and in other part by experiences in life. There was a random mutation that made someon…
The real challenge is not to see it as a binary (the machine either has feelings or it has none). It's possible for the machine to have emergent processes or properties that resemble human feelings in their function and their complexity, but are otherwise nothing like them (structured very differently and work on completely different principles). It's possible to have a machine or algorithm so complex that the question of whether it has feelings is just a semantic debate on what you mean by “feelings” and where you draw the line.
A lot of the people who say “machines will never have feelings” are confident in that statement because they draw the line incredibly narrowly: if it ain't human, it ain't feeling. This seems to me putting the cart before the horse. It ain't feeling because you defined it so.
Re: A non-anthropomorphized view of LLMs
#170> I am baffled that the AI discussions seem to never move away from treating a function to generate sequences of words as something that resembles a human. This is such a bizarre take. The relation associating each human to the list of all words they will ever say is obviously a function. > almost magical human-like powers to something that - in my mind - is just MatMul with interspersed nonlinearities. There's a ric…
Not that this is your main point, but I find this take representative, “do you believe there's anything about humans that exists outside the mathematical laws of physics?”There are things “about humans”, or at least things that our words denote, that are outside physic’s explanatory scope. For example, the experience of the colour red cannot be known, as an experience, by a person who only sees black and white. This…
Perhaps. But I can't see a reason why they couldn't still write endless—and theoretically valuable—poems, dissertations, or blog posts, about all things red and the nature of redness itself. I imagine it would certainly take some studying for them, likely interviewing red-seers, or reading books about all things red. But I'm sure they could contribute to the larger red discourse eventually, their unique perspective might even help them draw conclusions the rest of us are blind to.
So perhaps the fact that they "cannot know red" is ultimately irrelevant for an LLM too?