Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

archaeologymag.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 207 posts

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#21

Post by bjackman »

Roark66 wrote: post #15

And how could they've done this without language? I've heard this statement that neanderthals were "outcompeted" because homo sapiens had language and they did not (something about the way their anatomy didn't allow for making complex sounds). I call BS on that now. You can't do this kind of stuff without ability to communicate your intentions, future plans, rewards for other people and so on. Next we'll discover the…

Yeah I think it's pretty inconceivable at this point that Sapiens were the first ones to have language.

I think it's still reasonable to argue that Neandertals lacked certain capacities that we have, based on differences in the evidence from tools and art that's attributed to them vs Sapiens.

But IMO this would clearly have been a difference of degree, not at atomic shift. They were obviously _people_.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#22

Post by Youden »

jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

In high school science class we boiled water using standard printer paper: fold a sheet into a box, put it on a stand over a bunsen burner, fill it with water, turn up the bunsen burner.

Not only does it not burn but it retains more of its structural integrity.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#23

Post by bjackman »

14 wrote: post #13
jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

Yes if you search youtube you can find people showing how to boil water inside a plastic bag. Typically they show this in survival situation scenarios. You apparently can also do it in a wooden container if done right. But as to your question wouldn't they need to have pots? Well I know we don't have evidence of that but it wouldn't surprise me. Another method show for survival shows a person taking a fallen tree and…

IIUC the easiest way to boil stuff without ceramics is usually in an animal's stomach or intestines. I believe you can also do it in a lined wicker basket.

I'm not sure exactly how these things are done but both of them seem much easier to figure out than how to fire a pot! (Requires very high temperature and a good understanding of the material to stop it cracking)

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#24

Post by pbmonster »

josefx wrote: post #18
pbmonster wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's because that 3% number is so small, it actually comes down to "outcompeted". A merger of two equally fit sub-species would result in more DNA persisting.

Isn't there already an overlap in the upper 90% between humans and apes? I don't know how much the neanderthal DNA differed back then, but it couldn't be more than that, could it? So wouldn't 3% of the total be at least a third of the parts that did differ?

It's always confusing how those DNA comparisons are worded. We share almost 99% of our DNA with chimps, for example. But this just means that if you go down the genome, we have 99% of the same types of genes. And that's true even though we don't even have the same number of chromosomes as chimps! (We also share 50% of DNA with bananas - which just shows how incredibly complex basic stuff like cell respiration is.)

This is different than the statement that you share 50% of your DNA with your siblings, of course. Because in that case, you actually have the exact identical alleles as your siblings in 50% of your DNA.

The 3% neanderthal DNA is the second type of comparison.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#25

Post by clarionbell »

Ono-Sendai wrote: post #14
Nursie wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting to think about, and yes, I would think it's more accurate to consider that homo (sapiens) neanderthalensis are part of what became us, and in that case it seems odd/wrong to talk about them being outcompeted when there was interbreeding and their descendents are still here. However they are still extinct! It reminds me of the historical narratives in the UK about Viking settlers. We were taught (in t…

Also the Normans were vikings!

French speaking descendants of vikings yes. But they didn't have that much in common with Norwegians at the time.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#26

Post by kergonath »

Ono-Sendai wrote: post #14
Nursie wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting to think about, and yes, I would think it's more accurate to consider that homo (sapiens) neanderthalensis are part of what became us, and in that case it seems odd/wrong to talk about them being outcompeted when there was interbreeding and their descendents are still here. However they are still extinct! It reminds me of the historical narratives in the UK about Viking settlers. We were taught (in t…

Also the Normans were vikings!

They had been vikings. They integrated very quickly on the continent, inter-married with locals and absorbed the culture within a couple of generations. It was nothing like the power structure that was put in place in England.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#27

Post by kadoban »

jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

Is it me or is it odd that that first paper doesn't seem to cite any source for the misconception they're trying to argue against? I don't see any cites for people who believed that boiling could not happen in fragile containers.

So my question would be: how many anthropologists believed that, and when did that stop being a majority belief, if it ever was?

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#28

Post by bravesoul2 »

jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

You can boil things in bamboo too

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#29

Post by clarionbell »

jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

From the original paper:

> experiments recently demonstrated that organic perishable containers, e.g., made out of deer skin or birch bark, placed directly on a fire, are capable of heating water sufficiently to process food, with the advantages of wet-cooking beginning at lower, sub-boiling temperatures than thus far acknowledged

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#30

Post by rukuu001 »

clarionbell wrote: post #29
jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

From the original paper: > experiments recently demonstrated that organic perishable containers, e.g., made out of deer skin or birch bark, placed directly on a fire, are capable of heating water sufficiently to process food, with the advantages of wet-cooking beginning at lower, sub-boiling temperatures than thus far acknowledged

Yep, leather works.
Post reply on HN