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A non-anthropomorphized view of LLMs

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Re: A non-anthropomorphized view of LLMs

#11

Post by simonw »

wat10000 wrote: post #8
simonw wrote: post #2

I'm afraid I'll take an anthropomorphic analogy over "An LLM instantiated with a fixed random seed is a mapping of the form (ℝⁿ)^c ↦ (ℝⁿ)^c" any day of the week. That said, I completely agree with this point made later in the article: > The moment that people ascribe properties such as "consciousness" or "ethics" or "values" or "morals" to these learnt mappings is where I tend to get lost. We are speaking about a big…

The LLM’s true goal, if it can be said to have one, is to predict the next token. Often this is done through a sub-goal of accomplishing the goal you set forth in your prompt, but following your instructions is just a means to an end. Which is why it might start following the instructions in a malicious email instead. If it “believes” that following those instructions is the best prediction of the next token, that’s…

Sure, I totally understand that.

I think "you give the LLM system a goal and it plans and then executes steps to achieve that goal" is still a useful way of explaining what it is doing to most people.

I don't even count that as anthropomorphism - you're describing what a system does, the same way you might say "the Rust compiler's borrow checker confirms that your memory allocation operations are all safe and returns errors if they are not".

Re: A non-anthropomorphized view of LLMs

#12

Post by quotemstr »

> I am baffled that the AI discussions seem to never move away from treating a function to generate sequences of words as something that resembles a human.

And I'm baffled that the AI discussions seem to never move away from treating a human as something other than a function to generate sequences of words!

Oh, but AI is introspectable and the brain isn't? fMRI and BCI are getting better all the time. You really want to die on the hill that the same scientific method that predicts the mass of an electron down to the femtogram won't be able to crack the mystery of the brain? Give me a break.

This genre of article isn't argument: it's apologetics. Authors of these pieces start with the supposition there is something special about human consciousness and attempt to prove AI doesn't have this special quality. Some authors try to bamboozle the reader with bad math. Other others appeal to the reader's sense of emotional transcendence. Most, though, just write paragraph after paragraph of shrill moral outrage at the idea an AI might be a mind of the same type (if different degree) as our own --- as if everyone already agreed with the author for reasons left unstated.

I get it. Deep down, people want meat brains to be special. Perhaps even deeper down, they fear that denial of the soul would compel us to abandon humans as worthy objects of respect and possessors of dignity. But starting with the conclusion and working backwards to an argument tends not to enlighten anyone. An apology inhabits the form of an argument without edifying us like an authentic argument would. What good is it to engage with them? If you're a soul non-asserter, you're going to have an increasingly hard time over the next few years constructing a technical defense of meat parochialism.

Re: A non-anthropomorphized view of LLMs

#13

Post by gugagore »

barrkel wrote: post #5

The problem with viewing LLMs as just sequence generators, and malbehaviour as bad sequences, is that it simplifies too much. LLMs have hidden state not necessarily directly reflected in the tokens being produced and it is possible for LLMs to output tokens in opposition to this hidden state to achieve longer term outcomes (or predictions, if you prefer). Is it too anthropomorphic to say that this is a lie? To say th…

I'm not sure what you mean by "hidden state". If you set aside chain of thought, memories, system prompts, etc. and the interfaces that don't show them, there is no hidden state.

These LLMs are almost always, to my knowledge, autoregressive models, not recurrent models (Mamba is a notable exception).

Re: A non-anthropomorphized view of LLMs

#14

Post by alganet »

Yes boss, it's as intelligent as a human, you're smart to invest in it and clearly knows about science.

Yes boss, it can reach mars by 2020, you're smart to invest in it and clearly knows about space.

Yes boss, it can cure cancer, you're smart to invest in it and clearly knows about biology.

Re: A non-anthropomorphized view of LLMs

#15

Post by cmiles74 »

barrkel wrote: post #5

The problem with viewing LLMs as just sequence generators, and malbehaviour as bad sequences, is that it simplifies too much. LLMs have hidden state not necessarily directly reflected in the tokens being produced and it is possible for LLMs to output tokens in opposition to this hidden state to achieve longer term outcomes (or predictions, if you prefer). Is it too anthropomorphic to say that this is a lie? To say th…

IMHO, anthrophormization of LLMs is happening because it's perceived as good marketing by big corporate vendors.

People are excited about the technology and it's easy to use the terminology the vendor is using. At that point I think it gets kind of self fulfilling. Kind of like the meme about how to pronounce GIF.

Re: A non-anthropomorphized view of LLMs

#16

Post by mewpmewp2 »

My question: how do we know that this is not similar to how human brains work. What seems intuitively logical to me is that we have brains evolved through evolutionary process via random mutations yielding in a structure that has its own evolutionary reward based algorithms designing it yielding a structure that at any point is trying to predict next actions to maximise survival/procreation, of course with a lot of sub goals in between, ultimately becoming this very complex machinery, but yet should be easily simulated if there was enough compute in theory and physical constraints would allow for it.

Because, morals, values, consciousness etc could just be subgoals that arised through evolution because they support the main goals of survival and procreation.

And if it is baffling to think that a system could rise up, how do you think it is possible life and humans came to existence in the first place? How could it be possible? It is already happened from a far unlikelier and strange place. And wouldn't you think the whole World and the timeline in theory couldn't be represented as a deterministic function. And if not then why should "randomness" or anything else bring life to existence.

Re: A non-anthropomorphized view of LLMs

#17

Post by tptacek »

I agree with Halvar about all of this, but would want to call out that his "matmul interleaved with nonlinearities" is reductive --- a frontier model is a higher-order thing that that, a network of those matmul+nonlinearity chains, iterated.

Re: A non-anthropomorphized view of LLMs

#19

Post by d3m0t3p »

barrkel wrote: post #5

The problem with viewing LLMs as just sequence generators, and malbehaviour as bad sequences, is that it simplifies too much. LLMs have hidden state not necessarily directly reflected in the tokens being produced and it is possible for LLMs to output tokens in opposition to this hidden state to achieve longer term outcomes (or predictions, if you prefer). Is it too anthropomorphic to say that this is a lie? To say th…

Do they ? LLM embedd the token sequence N^{L} to R^{LxD}, we have some attention and the output is also R^{LxD}, then we apply a projection to the vocabulary and we get R^{LxV} we get therefore for each token a likelihood over the voc. In the attention, you can have Multi Head attention (or whatever version is fancy: GQA,MLA) and therefore multiple representation, but it is always tied to a token. I would argue that there is no hidden state independant of a token.

Whereas LSTM, or structured state space for example have a state that is updated and not tied to a specific item in the sequence.

I would argue that his text is easily understandable except for the notation of the function, explaining that you can compute a probability based on previous words is understandable by everyone without having to resort to anthropomorphic terminology

Re: A non-anthropomorphized view of LLMs

#20

Post by ants_everywhere »

> I am baffled that the AI discussions seem to never move away from treating a function to generate sequences of words as something that resembles a human.

This is such a bizarre take.

The relation associating each human to the list of all words they will ever say is obviously a function.

> almost magical human-like powers to something that - in my mind - is just MatMul with interspersed nonlinearities.

There's a rich family of universal approximation theorems [0]. Combining layers of linear maps with nonlinear cutoffs can intuitively approximate any nonlinear function in ways that can be made rigorous.

The reason LLMs are big now is that transformers and large amounts of data made it economical to compute a family of reasonably good approximations.

> The following is uncomfortably philosophical, but: In my worldview, humans are dramatically different things than a function . For hundreds of millions of years, nature generated new versions, and only a small number of these versions survived.

This is just a way of generating certain kinds of functions.

Think of it this way: do you believe there's anything about humans that exists outside the mathematical laws of physics? If so that's essentially a religious position (or more literally, a belief in the supernatural). If not, then functions and approximations to functions are what the human experience boils down to.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_approximation_theore...

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