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AV1@Scale: Film Grain Synthesis, The Awakening

netflixtechblog.com

51–60 of 230 posts

Re: AV1@Scale: Film Grain Synthesis, The Awakening

#51
post #3

There are definite philosophical questions over the merits of adding noise, but the problem with their example here is their denoising process appears to excessively blur everything, so both it and the synthesized grain image look noticeably less sharp than the source. The grain itself also looks too much like basic noise, and not really grain like.

> and not really grain like

that's an understatement. it just looks like RGB noise effect was added. film grain does not look like RGB noise. to me, film grain is only one part of what gave film the film look. the way the highlights bloom rather than clip. it also was more natural/organic/some descriptive other than the ultrasharp of modern digital acquisition. using some SoftFX or Black Mist type filters help, but it's just not the same as it is a digital vs analog type of acquisition. all of these attempts at making something look like it's not just keep falling down in the same ways. but hey, there's a cool tech blog about it this time. film grain filters have been around for a long time, yet people just don't care for them. even in Blu-ray time frame, there was attempts at removing the grain in the encode and applying it in playback. Netflix isn't coming up with anything new, and apparently nothing exciting either based on the results.

Re: AV1@Scale: Film Grain Synthesis, The Awakening

#52

> This grain, formed from tiny particles during the film’s development, is more than just a visual effect. It plays a key role in storytelling by enhancing the film’s depth and contributing to its realism. I never understood the “grain = realism” thing. my real eyes don’t have grain. I do appreciate the role of grain as an artistic tool though, so this is still cool tech

Film grain and 24fps are both examples of people being far too attached to the technical limitations of film.

Re: AV1@Scale: Film Grain Synthesis, The Awakening

#53
post #8

> This grain, formed from tiny particles during the film’s development, is more than just a visual effect. It plays a key role in storytelling by enhancing the film’s depth and contributing to its realism. I never understood the “grain = realism” thing. my real eyes don’t have grain. I do appreciate the role of grain as an artistic tool though, so this is still cool tech

The way I see it is that grain makes the film look more detailed than it really is, it can also hide compression artefacts and blurriness. I don't know the psychovisuals behind that. Maybe it adds some high frequencies that compression often washes out, or maybe acts like some kind of dithering. As for your eyes, I am pretty sure that they have grain, that's how quantum physics work, you just don't perceive it becaus…

> As for your eyes, I am pretty sure that they have grain

And lots of it, actually. Just close your eyes or look at any non-textured surface. Tons of noise.

The decreasing signal-to-noise ratio is also highly noticeable when it gets darker.

Re: AV1@Scale: Film Grain Synthesis, The Awakening

#54
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of modern windows having fake panes. They’re just strips that are applied to give the impressions that there are multiple smaller panes because people are used to that and it feels “correct”. I have to imagine past glassmakers would have been absolutely enthralled by the ability we now have to make uniform, large sheets of glass, but here we are emulating the compromises they had to make because we ar…

> They’re just strips that are applied to give the impressions that there are multiple smaller panes because people are used to that and it feels “correct”. It is more than just 'feeling correct': windows and their various (sub-)elements that make them up (can) change the architectural proportions and how the building is perceived as a whole: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAMyUoDz4Og * https://www.youtube.com/wat…

I strongly doubt that multiple smaller panes would have ever become a common style if we could have always made large glass panes. This is a perfect example of people becoming very used to a style forced by a technological limitation that is emulated even after the limitation doesn't exist.

Re: AV1@Scale: Film Grain Synthesis, The Awakening

#55
post #38

> This grain, formed from tiny particles during the film’s development, is more than just a visual effect. It plays a key role in storytelling by enhancing the film’s depth and contributing to its realism. I never understood the “grain = realism” thing. my real eyes don’t have grain. I do appreciate the role of grain as an artistic tool though, so this is still cool tech

grain and 24fps and widescreen trigger certain contextual emotions around the movie-watching experience. remove them and your brain contextualizes the video very differently. this is likely the result of ~100 years of film-based filmmaking and projection. hell, we still call it filmmaking.

Yes, it is only the result of familiarity. We could gradually increase the frame rate of movies made in a year by 1 fps per year and then no one would even notice after 24 years every new movie would be 48fps.

Re: AV1@Scale: Film Grain Synthesis, The Awakening

#56
post #3

There are definite philosophical questions over the merits of adding noise, but the problem with their example here is their denoising process appears to excessively blur everything, so both it and the synthesized grain image look noticeably less sharp than the source. The grain itself also looks too much like basic noise, and not really grain like.

Since the beginning of film editors have added tricks in post. I would love for them to provide an option to view it with film simulation vs without. One of my favorite movies of all time, The Holdovers, did film simulation extremely well. It's set in the '70s so it attempts to look like a movie of that era. It looked great to me, but if you're an actual film nerd you're going to notice a lot of things aren't exactly…

Holdovers was pretty great. Sorta like an 80’s school comedy but with the perspective of the adults included, making it a totally different type of movie.

Re: AV1@Scale: Film Grain Synthesis, The Awakening

#57
post #3

There are definite philosophical questions over the merits of adding noise, but the problem with their example here is their denoising process appears to excessively blur everything, so both it and the synthesized grain image look noticeably less sharp than the source. The grain itself also looks too much like basic noise, and not really grain like.

These days, when we see noise/grain in an end product it has likely been added in post-production. So, ideally, studios would provide distributors with a noiseless source plus grain synthesis parameters. Bonus: many viewers would welcome an option to turn it off.

> provide distributors with a noiseless source plus grain synthesis parameters.

What parameters would that be? Make it look like Eastman Ektachrome High-Speed Daylight Film 7251 400D? For years, people have taken film negative onto telecines and created content of grain to be used as overlays. For years, colorists have come up with ways of simulating the color of specific film stocks by using reference film with test patterns that's been made available.

If a director/producer wants film grain added to their digital content, that's where it should be done in post. Not by some devs working for a streaming platform. The use of grain or not is a creative decision made by the creators of the work. That's where it should remain

Re: AV1@Scale: Film Grain Synthesis, The Awakening

#58

To the comments hating on grain: everything naturally has some amount of noise or grain - even the best digital sensors. Heck, even your eyes do. It's useful beyond just aesthetics. It tends to increase perceived sharpness and hides flaws like color banding and compression artifacts. That's not to say that all noise and grain is good . It can be unavoidable, due to inferior technology, or a result of poor creative ch…

My issue is that grain is good based on the creative decisions of the creators of the content. It is not something that a group of nerds compressing 1s and 0s should be making

Re: AV1@Scale: Film Grain Synthesis, The Awakening

#59
post #5

Yup, yet another example of the thing I'll never stop finding fascinating: ANY noticeable percieved "flaw" in any creative media will eventually become an aesthetic choice.

For an example, watch Shogun. Director apparently thought that most of the screen being out of focus was a positive. Quite distracting.

Or Snyder's terrible zombie movie Army of the Dead where he uses lenses with very shallow depth of field that makes almost everything look out of focus. It is very annoying.

Re: AV1@Scale: Film Grain Synthesis, The Awakening

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> both it and the synthesized grain image look noticeably less sharp than the source That's true, but at a given bitrate (until you get to very high bitrates), the compressed original will usually look worse and less sharp because so many bits are spent trying to encode the original grain. As a result, that original grain tends to get "smeared" over larger areas, making it look muddy. You lose sharpness in areas of t…

It seems like a shame that they didn’t include a screenshot of the original (with natural grain), after suffering from low-bitrate streaming. Aka the actual baseline. I can see why they want to compare against the actual local copy of the video with the natural grain. But that’s the perfect copy that they can’t actually hope to match.

> It seems like a shame that they didn’t include a screenshot of the original (with natural grain), after suffering from low-bitrate streaming.

Isn't that the image captioned "Regular AV1 (without FGS) @ 8274 kbps"?

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