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Launch HN: K-Scale Labs (YC W24) – Open-Source Humanoid Robots

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21–30 of 98 posts

Re: Launch HN: K-Scale Labs (YC W24) – Open-Source Humanoid Robots

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

obviously there's more to the kinematics than making the legs longer, but can't they just make the legs longer for it to be taller?

Longer legs means more inertia on the actuators, which means bigger actuators + bigger battery, which means heavier robot, which means...

right? thanks!

Re: Launch HN: K-Scale Labs (YC W24) – Open-Source Humanoid Robots

#22

I love the idea of humaniod robot and commercially available. I like to think of such expensive things as an investment rather than a toy if I have to buy. Question is what are some good use cases that can be solved with such a humanoid robot ?

To be honest, I don't know that there are many applications today which humanoids are the best form factor to solve. I would view it more as a form factor that is likely to get much more useful over the next few years, and having the hardware in your home lets you try out new techniques as they come online.

Personally, I think the first real use cases will mostly be entertainment. Humanoids have a high "coolness" factor. Also, I think there's a long tail of random problems which you don't want to buy a new robot to solve, but which, if you have a robot lying around that isn't perfect but is "good enough", might be possible to solve imperfectly. For example, I just had a newborn baby, and I was thinking it would be nice if I had a static arm that could hold his bottle for me. There's a lot of tail end problems like that in your day to day life. But I think the really interesting capabilities will come once there's very good end-to-end models running on-device.

Re: Launch HN: K-Scale Labs (YC W24) – Open-Source Humanoid Robots

#23
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do! https://bounties.kscale.dev/ We haven't updated it much but it's a good starter point

Amazing, pretty nice list! Two quick suggestions: a) some of these definitely look they could be done without hardware or with light hardware support from a staff member? b) if you do a) and are open source completely I bet you don’t even need to do bounties. The increased participation could mean some great community generated solutions quick.

I think it's tricky to manage an open source community effectively while still being opinionated on the product. I don't want to get too sucked into coordinating adhoc contributors - we do have a strong core team of people, and we all live together, which is pretty important. But yea, still figuring out what the right dynamic here will look like. Thanks for the suggestions!

Re: Launch HN: K-Scale Labs (YC W24) – Open-Source Humanoid Robots

#25
post #13

I have some technical questions about feet. Human feet have metatarsophalangeal joints connecting the toes to the rest of the foot. But humanoid robots don't have these (at least, the vast majority don't). Why? These joints are very useful. Also, the bottom of the human foot is soft and has thousands of nerve endings. Can we really expect robots to get anywhere near human mobility performance without this level of co…

So, most humanoids you see that are relatively cost-effective are just "humanoid" in that they look like humans, but there are significant mechanical differences between them and real humans. It's almost always driven by the cost of manufacturing different components. A good example is the lead screw you see in the knee and ankle on Optimus - while it is more human-centric to have tendon-like actuation, it drives the price up quite a bit. Put differently, humans have a lot of specialization which is not great if you want to mass manufacture something.

For walking, the most important thing is that the robot can be simulated well, so in our case, we tried to model the foot contact with the ground in simulation quite accurately. In fact, we found that force sensors in the foot probably help but they're not necessary in simulation, and we wanted to shave off anything that wasn't necessary. I am not sure how close we will get to human mobility - it's definitely a learning process - but you can get much further in simulation than you'd expect.

Re: Launch HN: K-Scale Labs (YC W24) – Open-Source Humanoid Robots

#26
post #2

Congratulations! This looks really great. What've you found to be the best hands / end effectors these days? When do you think we'll have good, reliable 5 finger hands that are ~reasonably priced?

I'm not convinced that 5 finger hands are necessary right now, but there is a really long tail of hand suppliers that we've been exploring to help get the price down. I think at volume the price for a good set of hands should settle somewhere around $300-500. Most of it comes down to meeting suppliers where they're at and negotiating mutually beneficial deals. It's not magic but it does require having a good understa…

Have you identified any limitations in current grippers based on lack of tactile sensing solutions to unlock truly dextrous manipulation?

Re: Launch HN: K-Scale Labs (YC W24) – Open-Source Humanoid Robots

#27
post #13

I have some technical questions about feet. Human feet have metatarsophalangeal joints connecting the toes to the rest of the foot. But humanoid robots don't have these (at least, the vast majority don't). Why? These joints are very useful. Also, the bottom of the human foot is soft and has thousands of nerve endings. Can we really expect robots to get anywhere near human mobility performance without this level of co…

Feet/ankles on humanoids are really hard mechanically. In many ways the kinematic requirements for the ankle are similar to a wrist, but while the wrist of a robot arm is the least-heavily-loaded, the ankle area can be the most heavily loaded. Humans get away with it by having most of the highly-stressed actuators in the lower leg, not the ankle itself, whereas many humanoid robots end up putting more of the actuators in the ankle assembly itself.

In general, I think the best way to think about the differences between human muscles and robot actuators is that human muscles are simultaneously incredible in terms of strength and power density, and also incredibly fragile. Robot actuators are fairly robust, but comparatively poor. Humans are essentially falling apart at all times, but the repair mechanisms in the body do a good enough job that it doesn't matter (although you probably know someone with a "career-disruptive/ending" sports-related injury that shows these mechanisms have limits). Robotics is a long way away from making actuators that can be fixed online in such a process. Even cable stretching in cable-driven mechanisms remains hard to handle effectively, and that's one of the simplest types of mechanism wear.

Re: Launch HN: K-Scale Labs (YC W24) – Open-Source Humanoid Robots

#28
Congratulations on the launch! This is really cool.

I'm not super active in the humanoid robot space anymore, however I did my PhD about 9 years ago in HRI. That was the time of Boston Dynamics, DARPA robotics challenge, and Aldebaran's Pepper and Nao robots.

You mentioned you are building everything open source. What happened with ROS and related projects? Do you build on top of that, or is that all super outdated that a reboot was needed?

Another question I have is: why are you choosing a two-legged human over a four-legged one?

My experiments with two legged robots were mostly bad. Not only did they fall basically all the time but they also had a big drift. So far, I have not seen any large improvements. But again, I might be very outdated.

I always said to my colleagues. The main point stopping robots from picking up is a stable platform. And with the platform I mean walking.

Re: Launch HN: K-Scale Labs (YC W24) – Open-Source Humanoid Robots

#29

Seems like the thing is entirely manufactured and mostly designed by a Chinese company? https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/V_WVFSJg3cTPq0Y4gK4cHw

That post says "manufactured", why would you assume "mostly designed"?

Any robotics company that is not thinking about manufacturing from day 1 is not a serious robotics company.

Re: Launch HN: K-Scale Labs (YC W24) – Open-Source Humanoid Robots

#30

Seems like the thing is entirely manufactured and mostly designed by a Chinese company? https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/V_WVFSJg3cTPq0Y4gK4cHw

Tao Motors reached out to us about a month ago after our soft launch because they just bought a big factory in Texas to manufacture golf karts, and the supply chain for golf karts and humanoids is actually pretty similar. Their subsidiary invested some money in our company recently and we are partnering with them to scale manufacturing. I discussed this in our launch video.
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