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Writing Code Was Never the Bottleneck

ordep.dev

251–260 of 400 posts

Re: Writing Code Was Never the Bottleneck

#251

Wow a lot of the stories people are writing here are super depressing. If a junior developer is delivering you a pile of code that doesn’t work, hasn’t been manually tested and verified by them, hasn’t been carefully pared down to its essential parts, and doesn’t communicate anything about itself either through code style, comments or docs … then you are already working with an LLM ; it just so happens to be hosted i…

People think juniors submitting LLM-generated code to seniors to review is a sign of how bad LLM is. I see it as a sign of how bad juniors are, and the need of seniors interacting with LLM directly without the middlemen.

LLMs are so easy to use though, it's addictive. Even as a senior I find myself asking LLMs stuff I know I should be looking up online instead.

Re: Writing Code Was Never the Bottleneck

#252
_about 2 years back. I pushed back hard with a similar argument but I have since come around._

I think the premise is true that writing code was never the "main" bottleneck but like any power tool, when wielded by the right person, it can blow past bottlenecks.

many of these arguments,only assume the case of an inexperienced engineer blindly pumping out and merging code. I concede the problems in this case.

but put this to test with more experienced engineers. how has/does it change their workflows? the results (I've personally observed) are exponentially different.

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> LLMs reduce the time it takes to produce code, but they haven’t changed the amount of effort required to reason about behavior, identify subtle bugs, or ensure long-term maintainability.

I have to strongly disagree here. this argument doesn't apply universally. I've actually found LLMs to make it easier to understand large swaths of code, faster. especially in larger codebases that have legacy code that no one has worked on or dared to touch. LLMs bring an element of fearlessness, which makes it easier to effect change.

Re: Writing Code Was Never the Bottleneck

#253

_about 2 years back. I pushed back hard with a similar argument but I have since come around._ I think the premise is true that writing code was never the "main" bottleneck but like any power tool, when wielded by the right person, it can blow past bottlenecks. many of these arguments,only assume the case of an inexperienced engineer blindly pumping out and merging code. I concede the problems in this case. but put t…

> I've actually found LLMs to make it easier to understand large swaths of code, faster.

If you have written about your workflow related to this outcome, appreciate if you share.

Re: Writing Code Was Never the Bottleneck

#254
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that work as well with non-strangers who are your coworker? I'm not sure. Also if you're organizationally changing the culture to force people to put more effort in writing the code, why are you even organizationally using LLMs...?

> Does that work as well with non-strangers who are your coworker? Yeah, OK, I guess you have to be a bit less unapologetic than Linux kernel maintainers in this case, but you can still shift the culture towards more careful PRs I think. > why are you even organizationally using LLMs Many people believe LLMs make coders more productive, and given the rapid progress of gen AI it's probably not wise to just dismiss thi…

My point in that second question was: Is the human challenge of getting a lot of inexperienced engineers to fully understand the LLM output actually worth the time, effort and money to solve vs sticking to solving the technical problems that you're trying to make the LLM solve?

Usually organizational changes are massive efforts. But I guess hype is a hell of an inertia buster.

Re: Writing Code Was Never the Bottleneck

#256
I predict that using LLMs is going to be a firing offense.

There will be a 100 justifications for and against it, but in the end you are going to need junior devs.

If said junior dev has not done the work, and an LLM has helped them, you are going to lose your hair walking through the code - every single time.

So you will choose between doing the work yourself, hiring new devs, or making the environment you do your work in become predictable.

We can argue that LLMs are massive piracy monstrosities, with huge amounts of public code in them, or that they are interfering with the ability of people to learn the culture of the company. The argument doesn't matter, because the reasoning being done here is motivated reasoning.

You will not care how LLMs are kept out of the playing pen, you just care that they are out.

So incentives will be structured to ensure that is the case.

What will really be game set and match, will be when some massive disaster strikes because of bad code, and it can either directly or tangentially be linked to LLMs.

Re: Writing Code Was Never the Bottleneck

#257

My most recent example of this is mentoring young, ambitious, but inexperienced interns. Not only did they produce about the same amount of code in a day that they used to produce in a week (or two), several other things made my work harder than before: - During review, they hadn't thought as deeply about their code so my comments seemed to often go over their heads. Instead of a discussion I'd get something like "go…

The original approach was to be a surgeon and minimally cut the code to save the patient (the PR). You need to change your thinkong to realize the architecture of the prompt was wrong. Talk in abstractions and let them fully revise the PR, like "this should be refactored to reraise errors to the calling function" instead of pinpointing single lines.

In other words, we need to code review the same way we interact with LLMs - point to the overarching flaw and request a reroll.

Re: Writing Code Was Never the Bottleneck

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dealt with a 4x as expensive statement-of-work fixed price contract that was nearshored and then subbed out to a revolving cast of characters. The SOW was so poorly specified that it was easy to maliciously comply with it, and it had no real acceptance tests. As a result legal didn't think IT would have a leg to stand on arguing with the vendor on the contract, and we ended up constantly re-negotiating on cost for…

I have seen the revolving cast of characters bit play out several times. It’s as if they hire 1 or 2 competent people and rotate them to face the client that is currently screaming the loudest. To be fair though, in your case it aounds like 51% (and maybe even 75+%) of the defect was in the specifications.

Oh yeah, 75-90% of the outcome was determined by the bad specification/contract.

You can have a loose spec and trust the team to do the right thing if it's an internal team you will allocate budget/time to iterate. Not if you have a fixed time & cost contract.

Re: Writing Code Was Never the Bottleneck

#259

My most recent example of this is mentoring young, ambitious, but inexperienced interns. Not only did they produce about the same amount of code in a day that they used to produce in a week (or two), several other things made my work harder than before: - During review, they hadn't thought as deeply about their code so my comments seemed to often go over their heads. Instead of a discussion I'd get something like "go…

>This lead to a kind of effort inversion, where senior devs spent much more time on these PRs than the junior authors themselves. It's funny, I have the same problem, but with subject matter expertise. I work with internal PR people and they clearly have shifted their writing efforts to be AI-assisted or even AI-driven. Now I as the SME get these AI-written blog posts and press releases and I spend a far more time on…

… I can do that myself.

So then you see where this is going.

Re: Writing Code Was Never the Bottleneck

#260
post #79
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - Many bugs were of a new kind (to me), the code would look like it does the right thing but actually not work at all, or just be much more broken than code with that level of "polish" would normally be. This reminded me of a quarter million dollar software project one of my employers had contracted to a team in a different country. On the face of it - especially if you go and check by the spec sheet - everything w…

I'm expecting to see so much more poor quality software being made. We're going to be swimming in an ocean of bad software. Good experienced devs will be able to make better software, but so many inexperienced devs will be regurgitating so much more lousy software at a pace never seen before, it's going to be overwhelming. Or as the original commenter described, they're already being overwhelmed.

> Good experienced devs will be able to make better software

I lowkey disagree. I think good experienced devs will be pressured to write worse software or be bottlenecked by having to deal with bad software. Depends on company and culture of course. But consider that you as expereinced dev now have to explain things that go completely over the head of the junior devs, and most likely the manager/PO, so you become the bottleneck, and all pressure will come down on you. You will hear all kinds of stuff like "80% there is enough" and "dont let perfect be the enemy of good" and "youre blocking the team, we have a deadline" and that will become even worse. Unless you're lucky enough to work in a place with actually good engineering culture.

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