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I'm dialing back my LLM usage

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Re: I'm dialing back my LLM usage

#141

Post by mekoka »

jm4 wrote: post #120
x187463 wrote: post #11

Am I spending too much time on HN or is every post/comment section filled with this same narrative? Basically, LLMs are exciting but they produce messy code for which the dev feels no ownership. Managing a codebase written by an LLM is difficult because you have not cognitively loaded the entire thing into your head as you do with code written yourself. They're okay for one-off scripts or projects you do not intend t…

I think you described it much more succinctly than most people do. It's been my exact experience as well. The LLM can develop much faster than I can build a mental model. It's very easy to get to a point where you don't know what's going on, a bunch of bugs have been introduced and you can't easily fix them or refactor because you're essentially the new guy on your own project. I find myself adjusting by committing c…

> because you're essentially the new guy on your own project.

Wow! Lol. One sentence to rule them all.

Re: I'm dialing back my LLM usage

#142

Post by exe34 »

swat535 wrote: post #126
totalperspectiv wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you hit the nail on the head with the mental model part. I really like this method of thinking about programming "Programming as Theory Building" https://gist.github.com/onlurking/fc5c81d18cfce9ff81bc968a7f... I don't mind when other programmers use AI, and use it myself. What I mind is the abdication of responsibility for the code or result. I don't think that we should be issuing a disclaimer when we use AI…

LLMS are great at generating scaffolding and boilerplate code which then I can iterate upon. I'm not going write describe User do ... it ".." for the thousand time.. or write the controller files with CRUD actions.. LLMS can do these. I can then review the code, improve it and go from there. They are also very useful for brain storming ideas, I treat it as a better google search. If I'm stuck trying to model my data,…

If you need to do something for a thousand times, why don't you write a template?

Re: I'm dialing back my LLM usage

#143

Post by JohnMakin »

transpute wrote: post #98
skeeter2020 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this what Brooks describes, stating more than 50 years ago that there's a fundamental shift when a system can no longer be held in a single mind, and the communication & coordination load that results from adding people? It seems with a single person offloading the work to an LLM right at the start they give up this efficiency before even beginning, so unless you're getting AI to do all the work it will eventua…

Indeed. Speedrunning an LLM variation of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway's_law . Organizations which design systems (in the broad sense used here) are constrained to produce designs which are copies of the communication structures of these organizations. — Melvin E. Conway, How Do Committees Invent? > there's a fundamental shift when a system can no longer be held in a single mind Should LLM users invest in both…

This law took several years to understand for me. Early on, I'd come into an infra situation and kind of incredulously say stuff like "Why not do (incredibly obvious thing)?" and be frustrated by it quite often.

Usually it's not because people think it can't be done, or shouldn't be done, it's because of this law. Like yes in an ideal world we'd do xyz, but department head of product A is a complete anti-productive bozo that no one wants to talk to or deal with, so we'll engineer around him kind of a thing. It's incredibly common once you see it play out you'll see it everywhere.

Re: I'm dialing back my LLM usage

#144

Post by stephendause »

One point I haven't seen made elsewhere yet is that LLMs can occasionally make you less productive. If they hallucinate a promising-seeming answer and send you down a path that you wouldn't have gone down otherwise, they can really waste your time. I think on net, they are helpful, especially if you check their sources (which might not always back up what they are saying!). But it's good to keep in mind that sometimes doing it yourself is actually faster.

Re: I'm dialing back my LLM usage

#145

Post by KaiMagnus »

I’ve been starting my prompts more and more with the phrase „Let’s brainstorm“.

Really powerful seeing different options, especially based on your codebase.

> I wouldn't give them a big feature again. I'll do very small things like refactoring or a very small-scoped feature.

That really resonates with me. Anything larger often ends badly and I can feel the „tech debt“ building in my head with each minute Copilot is running. I do like the feeling though when you understood a problem already, write a detailed prompt to nudge the AI into the right direction, and it executes just like you wanted. After all, problem solving is why I’m here and writing code is just the vehicle for it.

Re: I'm dialing back my LLM usage

#146

Post by transpute »

JohnMakin wrote: post #143
transpute wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Speedrunning an LLM variation of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway's_law . Organizations which design systems (in the broad sense used here) are constrained to produce designs which are copies of the communication structures of these organizations. — Melvin E. Conway, How Do Committees Invent? > there's a fundamental shift when a system can no longer be held in a single mind Should LLM users invest in both…

This law took several years to understand for me. Early on, I'd come into an infra situation and kind of incredulously say stuff like "Why not do (incredibly obvious thing)?" and be frustrated by it quite often. Usually it's not because people think it can't be done, or shouldn't be done, it's because of this law. Like yes in an ideal world we'd do xyz, but department head of product A is a complete anti-productive b…

> no one wants to talk to or deal with, so we'll engineer around him

Sometimes, forking product lines, departments or budgets.

Re: I'm dialing back my LLM usage

#147

Post by sunrunner »

transpute wrote: post #98
skeeter2020 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this what Brooks describes, stating more than 50 years ago that there's a fundamental shift when a system can no longer be held in a single mind, and the communication & coordination load that results from adding people? It seems with a single person offloading the work to an LLM right at the start they give up this efficiency before even beginning, so unless you're getting AI to do all the work it will eventua…

Indeed. Speedrunning an LLM variation of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway's_law . Organizations which design systems (in the broad sense used here) are constrained to produce designs which are copies of the communication structures of these organizations. — Melvin E. Conway, How Do Committees Invent? > there's a fundamental shift when a system can no longer be held in a single mind Should LLM users invest in both…

I'm compelled to make sure any comment mentioning Conway's Law has a reply linking the following video (and perhaps I should create a bot to do this):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IUj1EZwpJY

This analysis of the real-world effects of Conway's Law seems deeply horrifying, because the implication seems to be that there's nothing you can do to keep communication efficiency and design quality high while also growing an organisation.

Re: I'm dialing back my LLM usage

#148

Post by Tijdreiziger »

ukFxqnLa2sBSBf6 wrote: post #110
criddell wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your steroids comparison made me think of Cal Newport's recent blog post[1] where he argues that AI is making us lazy. He quotes some researchers who hooked people up to EEG machines then had them work. The people working without AI assistance incurred more brain "strain" and that's probably a good thing. But even he doesn't think AI shouldn't be used. Go ahead and use it for stuff like email but don't use it for you…

Of all the things I think AI shouldn’t be used for AI is one of them (unless you’re like completely illiterate). Whenever I get a “project status update” and the section header emojis show up I instantly just want to throw that garage in the trash.

That usage of emoji predates LLMs.

Re: I'm dialing back my LLM usage

#149

Post by [deleted] »

exe34 wrote: post #142
swat535 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LLMS are great at generating scaffolding and boilerplate code which then I can iterate upon. I'm not going write describe User do ... it ".." for the thousand time.. or write the controller files with CRUD actions.. LLMS can do these. I can then review the code, improve it and go from there. They are also very useful for brain storming ideas, I treat it as a better google search. If I'm stuck trying to model my data,…

If you need to do something for a thousand times, why don't you write a template?

[deleted]

Re: I'm dialing back my LLM usage

#150

Post by satvikpendem »

exe34 wrote: post #142
swat535 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LLMS are great at generating scaffolding and boilerplate code which then I can iterate upon. I'm not going write describe User do ... it ".." for the thousand time.. or write the controller files with CRUD actions.. LLMS can do these. I can then review the code, improve it and go from there. They are also very useful for brain storming ideas, I treat it as a better google search. If I'm stuck trying to model my data,…

If you need to do something for a thousand times, why don't you write a template?

Templates aren't as flexible as LLMs especially when seeing and utilizing the context of certain files.
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