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Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

xfinity.com

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Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#201

Post by godelski »

Aurornis wrote: post #62
josho wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution here shouldn't be technical; it should be legal. If we rely on the technical path, Comcast can achieve the same by how many active IPv6 addresses are in use. Even if you aren't using your phone, the device is going to be constantly pinging services like email, and your ISP can use that to piece together how many people are at home. If we rely on legal protection, then not only Comcast, but all ISPs will…

> The solution here shouldn't be technical; it should be legal. The parent commenter was highlighting that law enforcement can compel them to provide the data. The customer has to opt-in to WiFi motion sensing to have the data tracked. If you see something appear in an app, you should assume law enforcement can compel the company to provide that data. It's not really a surprise. > If we rely on legal protection, then…

  > The customer has to opt-in to WiFi motion sensing to have the data tracked.

  - Is this true if Law Enforcement gets a subpoena? 
  - Is this true if Law Enforcement asks "nicely"?
  - Can Xfinity activate it without the user knowing?
    - Does it explicitly notify the user when the setting has been changed? (e.g. done by LE, hacker, or an abusive partner)
  - Is this a promise and a promise that by default it will stay off?
  - Is the code to perform this feature pre-installed and able to be trivially (or even non-trivially) activated by hackers?
Idk, there's a lot of questionable things here and Xfinity doesn't have the best track record that gives me a lot of confidence that we should trust them. This seems like an easily abused system that can do a lot of harm while provides very little utility to the vast majority of people.

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#202

Post by jitl »

slt2021 wrote: post #140
josho wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution here shouldn't be technical; it should be legal. If we rely on the technical path, Comcast can achieve the same by how many active IPv6 addresses are in use. Even if you aren't using your phone, the device is going to be constantly pinging services like email, and your ISP can use that to piece together how many people are at home. If we rely on legal protection, then not only Comcast, but all ISPs will…

just buy your own simple modem and install your own wireless access point. do not buy any device from comcast you dont fully control!

Also make sure your phone and other every day carry items never connect to the Internet via your ISP’s network or emit radio signals while nearby your home.

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#203

Post by boston_clone »

margalabargala wrote: post #160
boston_clone wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm. Not much of this is true. They provide a modem / router combination device at even their cheapest tier. That device can leverage this technology, and the technology isn’t reliant on traffic. They can gather plenty, and can provide it to third parties without our knowledge or consent.

Hmm. That misses the broader reality. What you're missing, is that you are allowed to use your own modem. You can purchase an Arris Surfboard, and use that. They still have control of that modem, but can gather no downstream data. That the devices are not distributed by Comcast personally is not relevant to you being able to do this.

Your described option is not the broader reality.

Most people use the hardware that is provided with the service by default. Last time I checked, there's not even an additional rental fee.

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#204

Post by fc417fc802 »

aspenmayer wrote: post #87
dylan604 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These companies are so big now, and more importantly their lobbyists are, that it is unlikely any regulations would ever come that would limit their abilities to make money off of your PII.

All these already existing dragnets make oldies like the Clipper Chip seem like a weekend hackathon project. The irony is that all of these metadata leaks and correlation attacks etc were theoretical at the time these technologies were created and developed, unless you’re NSA level compute power, both human and silicon. Now, any script kid has enough info to try to build an array of SDRs to do the same thing, and no…

> any script kid has enough info to try to build an array of SDRs to do the same thing

It doesn't particularly matter what hobbyists get up to. It matters what's available at scale on the mass market, what's widely deployed, what data is legally permissible to collect on a large scale, and what data is legal to sell.

Law enforcement can't subpoena that which does not exist. The best defense to these sorts of things is often to place legal limits on collection, retention, and sale.

Your take is both alarmist and defeatist.

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#205

Post by WillPostForFood »

godelski wrote: post #199

Great, I always wanted to - be able to spy on my neighbors - add more surveillance systems into my house - have my neighbors be able to spy on me through my walls I get that there is utility to this thing but come on, they don't even guarantee that the information is private and they say they collect it. Does the boot really taste that good? Why are we so obsessed with surveillance and giving people the power to surv…

Engineers both create the tools for utopia and the tools for autocracy.

It's the same tool much of the time, including here. Utopia is getting a warning there is an intruder in your residence before you walk in, or better deterring that from happening. Autocracy is the government tracking you in your house.

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#206

Post by newshackr »

giantg2 wrote: post #200
heavyset_go wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no technical solution for this unless you want to invest billions/trillions in building new computing and networking platforms created with privacy in mind. ISPs will always have the ability to at least deduce whether a connection was used, the MAC address, and it there is WiFi, unfortunately whether people are physically present. If we look at the roadmap for WiFi/phones/etc, they will soon gain the ability…

"There is no technical solution for this" This isn't really true. The easiest technical solution to the problem of ISPs using your wifi data is to simply use your own WiFi router which does not send the data to them.

They can still deduce this from the traffic patterns.

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#207

Post by fc417fc802 »

aspenmayer wrote: post #71
landl0rd wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is every single thing I own should be "on my side". My car should not store my location history. My wifi router should not track presence and movement. My printer should not add any watermarks or telltale dots. My stuff should actively make it difficult or impossible for hackers, advertisers, or law enforcement to recover any useful information. This means, respectively: ensure personal info is stored secur…

This is magical thinking, because it’s using the legal system to solve a technical and social problem. It’s probably possible to create standards that don’t leak PII and other forms of metadata that are unique. That is probably the only solution going forward to reduce possible interdiction by extralegal third parties. However, Comcast can only be enjoined from doing this legally, and will likely not do anything that…

> This is magical thinking, because it’s using the legal system to solve a technical and social problem.

Is that not literally the entire purpose of the legal system?

> will likely not do anything that isn’t implemented by standards bodies, such as WiFi standards

I imagine beamforming techniques are only going to become more commonplace over time.

> Once Comcast has the data, it is available to law enforcement via the Third Party Doctrine

Unless they were legally obligated to purge it from their servers after a few weeks. Or if they employed E2EE so as not to have access to the data in the first place.

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#208

Post by class3shock »

Next step it will just be a feature they offer and whether you know of it, use it, or want it, it'll always be on in the background due to you signing a terms of service that lets them. And then it'll not just be in a xfinity router but your tv, phone, etc. Just makes me want to live in a cabin in the woods.

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#209

Post by class3shock »

slt2021 wrote: post #140
josho wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution here shouldn't be technical; it should be legal. If we rely on the technical path, Comcast can achieve the same by how many active IPv6 addresses are in use. Even if you aren't using your phone, the device is going to be constantly pinging services like email, and your ISP can use that to piece together how many people are at home. If we rely on legal protection, then not only Comcast, but all ISPs will…

just buy your own simple modem and install your own wireless access point. do not buy any device from comcast you dont fully control!

Until the day when to use the service you have to use their device. Or it's being used at work, a hotel, in stores, in your kids school, or anywhere you have no say on the devices used.

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#210

Post by godelski »

WillPostForFood wrote: post #205
godelski wrote: post #199

Great, I always wanted to - be able to spy on my neighbors - add more surveillance systems into my house - have my neighbors be able to spy on me through my walls I get that there is utility to this thing but come on, they don't even guarantee that the information is private and they say they collect it. Does the boot really taste that good? Why are we so obsessed with surveillance and giving people the power to surv…

Engineers both create the tools for utopia and the tools for autocracy. It's the same tool much of the time, including here. Utopia is getting a warning there is an intruder in your residence before you walk in, or better deterring that from happening. Autocracy is the government tracking you in your house.

I agree, but the reason I'm less convinced this is in that gray zone is because, frankly, break-ins are relatively rare. In general, crime is highly localized. So while I'm sure it is useful to some people, I'm quite suspicious that it is not helpful for most people. Maybe gives them peace of mind, but that peace of mind can increase paranoia. We'll just have to see the rates of false positives to false negatives...

But I do see this as an extremely useful tool for autocrats, hackers, and abusive relationships. I'm willing to bet that this is used by these malicious actors far more than your average user gets a true positive detection. And we really should be clear, the danger is far more than autocrats.

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