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Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

xfinity.com

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Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#51

Post by transpute »

andy_xor_andrew wrote: post #16
yborg wrote: post #4

I remember reading this paper when it came out, didn't think it would be commercializable, and here we are. https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/2486001.2486039

Yeah, it's bizarre. Normally the pathway for this kind of thing would be: 1. theorized 2. proven in a research lab 3. not feasible in real-world use (fizzles and dies) if you're lucky the path is like 1. theorized 2. proven in a research lab 3. actually somewhat feasible in real-world use! 4. startups / researchers split off to attempt to market it (fizzles and dies) the fact that this ended up going from research pa…

> the fact that this ended up going from research paper to "Comcast can tell if I'm home based on my body's physical interaction with wifi waves" is absolutely wild

The 15-year path was roughly:

  1. bespoke military use (see+shoot through wall)
  2. bespoke law-enforcement use (occupancy, activity)
  3. public research papers by MIT and others
  4. open firmware for Intel modems
  5. 1000+ research papers using open firmware
  6. bespoke offensive/criminal/state malware 
  7. bespoke commercial niche implementations
  8. IEEE standardization (802.11bf)
  9. (very few) open-source countermeasures
  10. ISP routers implementing draft IEEE standard
  11. (upcoming) many new WiFi 7+ devices with Sensing features
https://www.technologyreview.com/2024/02/27/1088154/wifi-sen...

> There is one area that the IEEE is not working on, at least not directly: privacy and security.. IEEE fellow and member of the Wi-Fi sensing task group.. the goal is to focus on “at least get the sensing measurements done.” He says that the committee did discuss privacy and security: “Some individuals have raised concerns, including myself.” But they decided that while those concerns do need to be addressed, they are not within the committee’s mandate.

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#52

Post by 0cf8612b2e1e »

afruitpie wrote: post #37
femiagbabiaka wrote: post #15

Xfinity won't give folks in certain locales (maybe everywhere in the US?) unlimited bandwidth unless they use their modem/router. This seems like a good reason that practice should be illegal.

As far as I’m aware, Xfinity fiber customers have to use the provided “Xfinity Wi-Fi Gateway” and cannot enable bridge mode. If anyone knows a way around this, please share! I want to connect my Xfinity ONT directly to my UniFi router.

In that situation, I would put the vendor modem in a microwave or other impromptu faraday cage to prevent the leakage. Remove/isolate the antennas as best as possible.

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#54

Post by aspenmayer »

dylan604 wrote: post #34
josho wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution here shouldn't be technical; it should be legal. If we rely on the technical path, Comcast can achieve the same by how many active IPv6 addresses are in use. Even if you aren't using your phone, the device is going to be constantly pinging services like email, and your ISP can use that to piece together how many people are at home. If we rely on legal protection, then not only Comcast, but all ISPs will…

What if I left my device at home?

With enough signals, gait recognition for example is possible, and those same signals could be corroborated with presence or absence of concomitant device signals to determine if your device is moving with your person, and if not, to then flag this for enhanced monitoring if evasion is suspected.

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#55

Post by Aurornis »

snarf21 wrote: post #47
jacobgkau wrote: post #2

> Subject to applicable law, Comcast may disclose information generated by your WiFi Motion to third parties without further notice to you in connection with any law enforcement investigation or proceeding, any dispute to which Comcast is a party, or pursuant to a court order or subpoena. Sounds like, at least in some limited circumstances (using the provided WiFi AP, having this feature turned on, etc), ISPs are goi…

Curious: What about adding a small battery powered WiFi device to your dogs collar? Would that look like a person moving around the house? What about a WiFi controlled mini drone that flew around you house? [Note: this should be illegal]

A much easier alternative is to not enable the feature on your router.

It's an opt-in feature. If you don't set it up, they aren't generating the home/away chart like shown in the article.

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#56

Post by nomel »

andy_xor_andrew wrote: post #16
yborg wrote: post #4

I remember reading this paper when it came out, didn't think it would be commercializable, and here we are. https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/2486001.2486039

Yeah, it's bizarre. Normally the pathway for this kind of thing would be: 1. theorized 2. proven in a research lab 3. not feasible in real-world use (fizzles and dies) if you're lucky the path is like 1. theorized 2. proven in a research lab 3. actually somewhat feasible in real-world use! 4. startups / researchers split off to attempt to market it (fizzles and dies) the fact that this ended up going from research pa…

It's not too crazy, if you're familiar with comms systems.

The ability to do this is a necessity for a comm system working in a reflective environment: cancel out the reflections with an adaptive filter, residual is now a high-pass result of the motion. It's the same concept that makes your cell location data so profitable, and how 10G ethernet is possible over copper, with the hybrid front end cancelling reflections from kinks in the cable (and why physical wiggling the cable will cause packet CRC errors). It's, quite literally, "already there" for almost every modern MIMO system, just maybe not exposed for use.

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#57

Post by linsomniac »

jklinger410 wrote: post #26

I had a conspiracy theorist tell me one time this is why they removed all the lead paint. It never quite made sense that kids were actually eating lead chips. I know lead is bad for you, maybe a coincidence.

>It never quite made sense that kids were actually eating lead chips

You know that lead tastes sweet, right?

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#58

Post by femiagbabiaka »

dylan604 wrote: post #50
femiagbabiaka wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm doing the first bit, but I can't turn off the wifi -- only stop broadcasting my "personal" network. And actually, as I went in to make sure that was the case, I saw that broadcasting of my personal network had been forcibly turned back on. Lovely!

If you don't broadcast your SSID, then how can device manufactures have hyper accurate location services available when GPS is not? You're not participating in the system! Hell, as much money as theGoogs gives to be the default search to various companies, would they not be willing to pay ISPs to keep that option on? I'm just throwing ideas out that I know nothing about, but I don't see why they would be opposed to t…

This is an old article, but still accurate. By default every Xfinity router also advertises Xfinity's public wifi offering: https://money.cnn.com/2014/06/16/technology/security/comcast.... Now if you turn that off then what? Not sure, but I trust Xfinity and their lawyers to find a way :)

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#59

Post by nandomrumber »

dylan604 wrote: post #50
femiagbabiaka wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm doing the first bit, but I can't turn off the wifi -- only stop broadcasting my "personal" network. And actually, as I went in to make sure that was the case, I saw that broadcasting of my personal network had been forcibly turned back on. Lovely!

If you don't broadcast your SSID, then how can device manufactures have hyper accurate location services available when GPS is not? You're not participating in the system! Hell, as much money as theGoogs gives to be the default search to various companies, would they not be willing to pay ISPs to keep that option on? I'm just throwing ideas out that I know nothing about, but I don't see why they would be opposed to t…

Doesn’t turning off SSID broadcast result in devices that have the wifi network saved repeatedly broadcast a request for the AP to identify itself in an effort to establish a connection?

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#60

Post by dawnerd »

femiagbabiaka wrote: post #46
dylan604 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So use their router, but connect your own to it. Then turn off the WiFi in their equipment

I'm doing the first bit, but I can't turn off the wifi -- only stop broadcasting my "personal" network. And actually, as I went in to make sure that was the case, I saw that broadcasting of my personal network had been forcibly turned back on. Lovely!

Put the thing in a faraday box.
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