Live data from Hacker News

The Worst Argument In The World

lesswrong.com

71–80 of 152 posts

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#71

This seems disingenuous to me. Already by calling what's essentially rhetoric "arguments", he's building a huge strawman. Take abortion - according to opponents a fetus is a living human being, and actively and purposefully killing a living human being is murder in the Charles Manson style. The argument for abortion isn't that it's somehow OK to kill really young human, it's that fetuses aren't independent human bein…

> The eugenics example is even worse. In the 1930s, people were absolutely certain eugenics was the best thing since sliced bread, then Hitler showed the world how bad that could go. To deny "Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it" as a guiding principle seems rather hubristic to me.

Erm, well, what we saw was that using social programs to engage in eugenics was a problem. Allowing individuals to change their genetic destiny, or allowing parents to try and use genetics to reduce the risk of disease is significantly different.

Of course, the stronger argument against eugenics is that narrowing the human genepool is dangerous. Genetic diversity is strength across successive generations. Then again, I'm not someone with a genetic disease, or the parent of a child with one, so I don't feel that I have any authority to say what should or should not be done. I'll limit myself to trying to make people aware of the issue.

> "Evolutionary psychology is sexist!" is a different beast: some people have decided, not through science, but though politics, that material differences between men and women (or the races for that matter) doesn't exist. Thus science finding otherwise is unacceptable. Of course it's a bad argument to reject science because it doesn't fit your political agenda.

Evolutionary psychology is a valid science, however, and this is an enormous however, untrained individuals attempting to use it to enforce social norms is absolutely 100% sexist. The arc of society is to eclipse our biology. Attempting to enforce it because of misunderstandings, willful or otherwise, of a novel field of science concerned primarily with our past is something I find personally disgusting.

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#72
post #30

The article could use some more neutral and left-leaning "Worst argument in the world (TWAITW)" examples. I'm fairly neutral politically, and the piece sounded left-biased to me. Note that I'm not stating my opinion here; the author even apologizes for it in the article. Perhaps he is simply at a loss for examples? We could help. Here's a neutral one (from the comments): - "George Washington was a traitor !" (should…

> but the creationist has a point that some of the more fantastic parts of evolution are harder to directly observe in the same way as, say, gravity. Honest question: which parts?

Examples from Michael Behe's book Darwin's Black Box:

Blood's ability to coagulate is a cascading system with over 30 parts. Remove one part and it's fatal for the individual. How could a system like that evolve gradually over time?

He lists quite a few such systems. Bacteria having motors, the cell's operational system, the anti-body system (again a cascading system of large complexity).

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#73
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the most enjoyable form of argument is to listen to what your opponent is saying. Instead of poking holes in bad word choices or minor factual inaccuracies, reconstruct in your head the person's argument to be as strong and clear-headed as possible. Then refute that argument, which is probably closer anyways to what the person was thinking than what they actually wrote. Going all out against someone's point of…

There is really no point in this unless you are arguing with someone who is trying to be honest to begin with. In that situation you don't need so much artifice anyway.

Well, I'd say there's a continuum of honesty. And intellectual generosity tends to beget intellectual generosity in the other person--and, for thoughtful undecided onlookers, makes them more amendable toward considering your side.

For instance, speaking from both sides of the experience, someone who is engaged but being sniping or nasty in a political debate might well see that you're giving their point an honest go of it and in response clean up their act.

And even if they're lost beyond all hope, there's only a limited amount of fun to be had in poking holes in the small without really addressing their motivating concern.

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#74
post #61

This seems disingenuous to me. Already by calling what's essentially rhetoric "arguments", he's building a huge strawman. Take abortion - according to opponents a fetus is a living human being, and actively and purposefully killing a living human being is murder in the Charles Manson style. The argument for abortion isn't that it's somehow OK to kill really young human, it's that fetuses aren't independent human bein…

> The argument for abortion isn't that it's somehow OK to kill really young human Not true! At least, if you asked me to make an argument in favor of abortion, that's the argument that I would make. No human within the first year or so after conception has any of the distinguishing features which give intelligent beings a higher moral status: Tool use, language use, abstract thought, logical reasoning, permanent memo…

I think your premises are incorrect. Create a machine that is like a human in all respects that you cite, tool use, language use, abstract thought, logical reasoning, permanent memory, and if it is just comprised of that, we will call it a very amazing robot. You could even add self-preservation routines, and we will call it an amazing robot that knows its own value.

But unless you add emotions that are recognizable to humans, you will find a very hard time convincing people that it is a person.

Similarly, I believe that emotional response is the reason why humans agree that it is not correct to destroy babies, but that some find it fine to destroy embryos. Those that disagree feel that the potential for emotions overrides any other concern.

Now, personally, I would hate to be a rationalist. Emotions provide the depth that make being alive worth experiencing. Divorcing my emotions from every decision making process would just be disgusting... well, see, I can't even describe it without emotion.

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#75

This seems disingenuous to me. Already by calling what's essentially rhetoric "arguments", he's building a huge strawman. Take abortion - according to opponents a fetus is a living human being, and actively and purposefully killing a living human being is murder in the Charles Manson style. The argument for abortion isn't that it's somehow OK to kill really young human, it's that fetuses aren't independent human bein…

> The eugenics example is even worse. In the 1930s, people were absolutely certain eugenics was the best thing since sliced bread, then Hitler showed the world how bad that could go. To deny "Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it" as a guiding principle seems rather hubristic to me. Erm, well, what we saw was that using social programs to engage in eugenics was a problem. Allowing individuals to chang…

however, and this is an enormous however, untrained individuals attempting to use it to enforce social norms is absolutely 100% sexist.

Here here. There are loads of people who "know the truth, and are jufdt trying to find the evidence" to support their beliefs about gender. This isn't real science, but cargo cult, pseduoscience for political goals.

Don't try to mask your politics in sciencey sounding arguments.

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#76
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the creationist has a point that some of the more fantastic parts of evolution are harder to directly observe in the same way as, say, gravity. Honest question: which parts?

Well from a personal perspective it's hard for me to distinguish, because evolution seems pretty incontrovertible to me. But I have many creationist friends, and the parts they don't seem to accept as "fact" are: - Speciation (how given any amount of time we could get things as distinct as flowers and dogs and humans from a common ancestor) - Emergent complexity (how given any amount of time, small changes in the gen…

Most of these points rely on the belief that evolution is always made up of slow, small changes in the genetic code. While this is the case most of the time (and enables the fine tuning that we see in many species), evolution can happen very quickly.

Population bottlenecks cause species that were once very fit to no longer be fit for an environment, enabling vastly different organisms to become dominant very quickly.

Then there are phenomena like Chromothripsis[1] (only discovered last year), whereby the genetic code of a cell is literally smashed into thousands of pieces and seemingly randomly reassembled. No one is saying that Chromothripsis is a major driver of evolution, but it is interesting in that massive rearrangements of this nature can still provide cells capable of reproducing. In the case of cancer, where it was first discovered, these cells are even able to reproduce faster than normal cells.

The other thing is that even advanced life like mammals and humans have more than 10 times as many bacterial cells than human cells[2]. Since bacteria can evolve very quickly, they play a very important role in evolution.

The eyes from no eyes makes no sense to me, since the entire array of light sensing capabilities are seen in nature. From eagles to plants. The same is true for many of the examples of emergent complexity that are thrown out there.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromothripsis

[2] http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=strange-but...

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#77

I have to disagree with his first example. He says "X is in a category whose archetypal member has certain features". The first example is "Abortion is murder". He then says, "If you define murder as 'killing another human being', then abortion is technically murder." The problem is that in this case, his "if" applies to roughly 56% of the US population, as they define murder that way. In other words, he needs to sel…

How else do you define murder?

Murder (n) - The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

Nobody is debating the definition of murder, the debate is over the definition of "human". When does an unborn child get the rights of a human? Is it at conception? At 3 months? At birth?

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#78
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the creationist has a point that some of the more fantastic parts of evolution are harder to directly observe in the same way as, say, gravity. Honest question: which parts?

Well from a personal perspective it's hard for me to distinguish, because evolution seems pretty incontrovertible to me. But I have many creationist friends, and the parts they don't seem to accept as "fact" are: - Speciation (how given any amount of time we could get things as distinct as flowers and dogs and humans from a common ancestor) - Emergent complexity (how given any amount of time, small changes in the gen…

Those are partially hard to grasp due to lacking knowledge of biology. For example almost all the possible steps between non-eyes and eyes exist in animals currently living today. Simply having a patch of light sensitive skin is better than no eyes at all.

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#79
This is great, but who does this appeal to? The small minority who actually takes the time to reflect on their own assumptions, is open to refactoring their own thinking and possesses the maturity to accept the wrongness of their own arguments?

Almost all public "debates", on topics of any importance, are merely shouting matches where two or more sides reiterate rationalizations for their already-held notions of the world. Rarely is anyone ever convinced to change their mind, and the philosopher who crafts valid and cogent arguments almost always has circles run about them by someone who can distill compelling emotional appeals into clever soundbites.

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#80
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The argument for abortion isn't that it's somehow OK to kill really young human Not true! At least, if you asked me to make an argument in favor of abortion, that's the argument that I would make. No human within the first year or so after conception has any of the distinguishing features which give intelligent beings a higher moral status: Tool use, language use, abstract thought, logical reasoning, permanent memo…

I think your premises are incorrect. Create a machine that is like a human in all respects that you cite, tool use, language use, abstract thought, logical reasoning, permanent memory, and if it is just comprised of that, we will call it a very amazing robot. You could even add self-preservation routines, and we will call it an amazing robot that knows its own value. But unless you add emotions that are recognizable…

> Create a machine that is like a human in all respects that you cite, tool use, language use, abstract thought, logical reasoning, permanent memory, and if it is just comprised of that, we will call it a very amazing robot. You could even add self-preservation routines, and we will call it an amazing robot that knows its own value.

I disagree. Much science fiction (for example Asimov) deals with the social positions of intelligent robots. I would assume, based on the number of people that find the arguments these works make compelling or at least interesting enough to buy them, that if such robots did exist, they would quickly gain at least a small faction of human political supporters. Eventually, through normal human social and political processes, our society and culture would hopefully reach some kind of position on what exactly makes something morally equivalent to humans, in a way that assigns some definite and logically consistent moral status to these robots.

> Similarly, I believe that emotional response is the reason why humans agree that it is not correct to destroy babies, but that some find it fine to destroy embryos.

It's probably true that emotional responses are a big part of the reason for much of the support behind most laws and policies, from the least controversial (murder is illegal) to the most (abortion, Obamacare, death penalty, affirmative action, welfare...). But that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't come up with abstract intellectual justifications for them.

> Divorcing my emotions from every decision making process would just be disgusting...

Emotions are basically heuristics which the human brain has evolved. They quickly give you guidelines for how you should act in a given situation without wasting valuable time and intellectual effort creating an elaborate argument as a justification of the obvious.

Emotions are usually right, but sometimes they lead us astray. And we're at a complete loss when we have to make a law that goes either one way or the other on something, but different people in our society have different emotional responses that lead them to different positions on the issue.

And besides, emotions can lead to things like racism or Nazism if followed blindly. (Godwin's Law, I know.)

That's where debate and argument come into play.

In a good debate, your empathy should let you experience the emotions on both sides of the issue, freeing your brain to decide which argument has a good logical structure and is adequately supported by facts.

Once you've decided, you should try to partially (but not totally! -- your brain can be wrong too!) suppress your empathy for the losing side and encourage your empathy for the winning side. You can actually train your emotions -- basically calibrating your heuristics to agree with your intellectual decisions, so in the future you can remember your position on the issue in your gut, without having to remember and fully reconstruct the argument you made. Yeah, I've found that hacking my own brain is awesome :)

By the way, using emotional heuristics as a shortcut is something I relied on in my reductio point against using emotions as your sole means of political decision-making -- your emotions immediately tell you that racism and Nazism are bad things, because you've been trained to think of them that way. While you can probably come up with a sound argument that racism and Nazism are bad, your emotions tell you those are bad things without you having to consciously construct or remember a justification of why they're bad. So you can immediately sense that the structure of my argument -- "relying blindly on emotions without consulting reason is bad because it leads to bad things" -- is sound, without having to go into an entire sub-argument about whether racism and Nazism are good or bad, and why, and whether the logical structure of the sub-argument is okay, and mentally fact-checking the facts cited by the sub-argument against what you know of the history of Hitler and World War II and slavery and Jim Crow and Martin Luther King...and then more sub-sub-arguments about fundamental moral questions like whether genocide is morally okay, or whether slavery is morally okay, or whether it's morally okay to treat people badly based on a certain set of genetic traits without actually enslaving them...without those emotional shortcuts to help us out, we'd never be able to communicate moral ideas efficiently or make moral decisions fast enough for them to matter in a fast-moving real-life situation.

(FYI, I suspect this feedback mechanism is what Terence Tao was talking about when he discussed how mathematicians train themselves to quickly decide whether something is true or false without constructing an airtight proof [1].)

[1] http://www.quora.com/Mathematics/What-is-it-like-to-have-an-...

Post reply on HN