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The Worst Argument In The World

lesswrong.com

41–50 of 152 posts

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#41

The article could use some more neutral and left-leaning "Worst argument in the world (TWAITW)" examples. I'm fairly neutral politically, and the piece sounded left-biased to me. Note that I'm not stating my opinion here; the author even apologizes for it in the article. Perhaps he is simply at a loss for examples? We could help. Here's a neutral one (from the comments): - "George Washington was a traitor !" (should…

This post has so much flame-bait in it I almost wonder if it's a meta-post-- a practical joke to see how many people go after these various politically-charged statements rather than comment on the article itself.

I'll assume it's not though. In which case, I really don't see how adding more politically-charged examples to this discussion, or any other for that matter, is at all productive.

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#42

The article could use some more neutral and left-leaning "Worst argument in the world (TWAITW)" examples. I'm fairly neutral politically, and the piece sounded left-biased to me. Note that I'm not stating my opinion here; the author even apologizes for it in the article. Perhaps he is simply at a loss for examples? We could help. Here's a neutral one (from the comments): - "George Washington was a traitor !" (should…

Wow - evolution has been directly observed and is the overwhelming consensus among biologists, if not among fundamentalists whose theology is threatened by it... yet you have carefully impugned its existence by referencing "fantastic parts," as if evolution were a matter of unicorns or Roswell or something. Go learn about Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium, then come and lecture us on how evolution isn't really a fact. I wil…

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Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#43
This seems disingenuous to me. Already by calling what's essentially rhetoric "arguments", he's building a huge strawman.

Take abortion - according to opponents a fetus is a living human being, and actively and purposefully killing a living human being is murder in the Charles Manson style. The argument for abortion isn't that it's somehow OK to kill really young human, it's that fetuses aren't independent human beings, they're an extension of the mothers body. It's really not a relevant metric for wether murder is murder if there are grieving friends and family, or if people live in fear - it seems every other crime show deals with the murder of a miserable, lonely homeless guy or a prostitute. According to this argument, that's not murder at all.

The eugenics example is even worse. In the 1930s, people were absolutely certain eugenics was the best thing since sliced bread, then Hitler showed the world how bad that could go. To deny "Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it" as a guiding principle seems rather hubristic to me.

"Evolutionary psychology is sexist!" is a different beast: some people have decided, not through science, but though politics, that material differences between men and women (or the races for that matter) doesn't exist. Thus science finding otherwise is unacceptable. Of course it's a bad argument to reject science because it doesn't fit your political agenda.

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#44

I wonder if there's some sort of way to definitively defeat someone's argument in issues other than math and science. I doubt it -- I suspect all arguments essentially boil down to moral relativism based upon gut feelings (environmental or genetic factors). I guess a more optimistic question is whether there's a statistically significant process to convince* your opponent that your argument is correct. I would actual…

This is an ancient field and its name is rhetoric.

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#45

I wonder if there's some sort of way to definitively defeat someone's argument in issues other than math and science. I doubt it -- I suspect all arguments essentially boil down to moral relativism based upon gut feelings (environmental or genetic factors). I guess a more optimistic question is whether there's a statistically significant process to convince* your opponent that your argument is correct. I would actual…

> arguments essentially boil down to moral relativism based upon gut feelings (environmental or genetic factors)

There are many pieces of this problem. A few of them at random:

1. The US education system doesn't do a good job of teaching people to think rigorously and analytically. Up to 12th grade, math is largely memorizing specific algorithms, science is memorizing vocabulary words, real programming courses are usually optional and don't exist at most schools.

2. Our education system actively beats down original critical thinking and encourages people to do what they think the teacher wants.

3. In college, a vast majority professors and students are very liberal. I have never heard or come up with a satisfactory explanation for the causes of this; for me personally, many of my innate leftward biases actually declined through high school and college as my logical reasoning abilities became more acute through application to harder problems, and I gained more experience of the world.

But the prevalance of a single political point of view in our institutions of higher learning may actually cause great damage to our country's political problem-solving abilities: Many people who are highly intelligent and formally trained to think critically avoid questioning liberal ideas because everyone they know and respect thinks the same way, while they are overly dismissive of conservative ideas because many of their proponents don't have the tools to effectively argue their positions.

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#46

This seems disingenuous to me. Already by calling what's essentially rhetoric "arguments", he's building a huge strawman. Take abortion - according to opponents a fetus is a living human being, and actively and purposefully killing a living human being is murder in the Charles Manson style. The argument for abortion isn't that it's somehow OK to kill really young human, it's that fetuses aren't independent human bein…

> "Those who don't learn history is doomed to repeat it"

Even when they have learned from history?

We understand more now about exactly why the Nazi eugenics was wrong than we've ever known. Comparing the quest for a mythical Aryan Superman (Super-Duper-Superman!) to the hunt for a method to eliminate Tay-Sachs is useful how?

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#47

I wonder if there's some sort of way to definitively defeat someone's argument in issues other than math and science. I doubt it -- I suspect all arguments essentially boil down to moral relativism based upon gut feelings (environmental or genetic factors). I guess a more optimistic question is whether there's a statistically significant process to convince* your opponent that your argument is correct. I would actual…

This is an ancient field and its name is rhetoric.

And as far as I can tell, it's never been objective.

Where's the studies comparing multiple styles of argument and determining which had the highest percentages of "wins"?

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#48
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the creationist has a point that some of the more fantastic parts of evolution are harder to directly observe in the same way as, say, gravity. Honest question: which parts?

If we came from monkeys, why are the monkeys still there??

The answer is simple -- the fact that one species branches off from another species doesn't mean the initial species must die off. There are any number of counterexamples.

Also, the simian species from which we evolved in fact no longer exists. I emphasize this is just a coincidence and doesn't prove one or another point about evolution.

Darwin's finch species from the Galapagos Islands all coexisted, even though most of them branched off from each other, or from a single initial species. There is no reason to assume a priori that species B, which branches from species A, requires that species A must go extinct.

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#49

Thanks to this article, I can finally put into words what bothers me about "Copyright infringement is theft"! Yes copyright infringement share some of the properties of theft, but they are sufficiently different that we shouldn't apply our intuitions about theft to copyright infringement, just like we shouldn't apply our intuitions about theft to taxation.

When someone says that piracy or taxation are theft, they are not necessarily appealing to intuitions about theft. They may literally hold and mean to state that they share with carjacking whatever makes carjacking theft, WITHOUT sharing other properties of carjacking... in effect, this is a thesis statement rather than a knock-down argument.

Of course, it is also possible that it is not even an honest appeal to intuition, rather just an emotional tarring which will never be substantiated. This is usually what is irritating about hearing those arguments.

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an ancient field and its name is rhetoric.

And as far as I can tell, it's never been objective. Where's the studies comparing multiple styles of argument and determining which had the highest percentages of "wins"?

How do you objectively pin down the concept of "win"?
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