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ICE test train reaches speeds of up to 405.0 km/h

deutschebahn.com

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Re: ICE test train reaches speeds of up to 405.0 km/h

#91

Post by lqet »

eqvinox wrote: post #88
lqet wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The once efficient and punctional trains in Germany have deteriorated severely in the past years due to lots of delayed maintenance causing lots of delays and even regular cancelations of trains. The main cause (often somewhat hidden behind the term "decayed infrastructure") is that there are too many trains on too few tracks. There are many reasons for that. I think the main ones are: * Political pressure to have…

> The main cause (often somewhat hidden behind the term "decayed infrastructure") is that there are too many trains on too few tracks. Do you have a citation for this? The people I know from the DB bubble are telling me that while some places have not enough track (e.g. the infamous Frankfurt-Mannheim/Riedbahn), but the everywhere problem is that there's just fault over fault over fault in tracks (often switches, but…

> Do you have a citation for this?

I don't, this is just my personal experience with passenger rail in southwestern Germany. The smaller lines with 1-2 trains per hour are usually extremely reliable, while the lines on crowded tracks are usually delayed, or cancelled completely. Note that many of the reliable lines I regularly used over the past 10-15 years ran on track equipment from the 19th century, some still with wing signals and switches operated via pulleys. (Anecdotally, I never experienced any technical problems with this old equipment as a passenger, the technical problems usually started after modernization).

> Even this I'm not quite willing to accept without citation; the railway timetables in the 70ies and 80ies, especially after the oil shock, were quite dense.

The factor of 2-3 was for my local network (which was converted to an S-Bahn network a few years ago, and a 30 minute frequency was introduced, with 15 minute frequency during peak hours). Some parts of that network only had 1-2 trains per day from the 70ies to the mid-90ies.

Re: ICE test train reaches speeds of up to 405.0 km/h

#92

Post by scott_w »

simianwords wrote: post #64
microtonal wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

West European rail is very full, so rail use is carefully coordinated, since trains of vastly different speeds (e.g. ICE vs a regional train) use the same tracks. If an ICE is, say, 15 minutes late, they cannot just drive faster to catch up. The schedule went on, and at that point there may be a much slower regional or intercity train on the same trajectory. This is why ICE delays tend to cascade. It starts with a sh…

This looks technically correct but let’s exaggerate the speed up to drive my point. Let’s assume trains are 2x faster now than before. You can now either reduce the time and pack the schedule or use the extra “x” time for catching up when needed. Where does this logic break?

> the ICE gets stuck behind a slower train, increasing the delay, etc.

Right here. Those slower (older) trains don't magically get any faster just because the train behind it sped up.

> pack the schedule

You actually can't just double it up because faster trains need bigger gaps between them, just like driving on a motorway. If the train in front needs to slow/stop for whatever reason, you don't want the train behind smashing into it at 400km/h because it was tailgating.

Re: ICE test train reaches speeds of up to 405.0 km/h

#93

Post by gcatellani2k »

lqet wrote: post #91
eqvinox wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main cause (often somewhat hidden behind the term "decayed infrastructure") is that there are too many trains on too few tracks. Do you have a citation for this? The people I know from the DB bubble are telling me that while some places have not enough track (e.g. the infamous Frankfurt-Mannheim/Riedbahn), but the everywhere problem is that there's just fault over fault over fault in tracks (often switches, but…

> Do you have a citation for this? I don't, this is just my personal experience with passenger rail in southwestern Germany. The smaller lines with 1-2 trains per hour are usually extremely reliable, while the lines on crowded tracks are usually delayed, or cancelled completely. Note that many of the reliable lines I regularly used over the past 10-15 years ran on track equipment from the 19th century, some still wit…

And with the introduction of ETCS the number of trains can theoretically be increased even more, as the distance for safe operation between the trains can be reduced thanks to it. I agree on all points though: the German Railway is in a predicted crisis and has very little to do with problems inside DB itself but from regulations stemming from the owners (the German Government). Without money to invest in new infrastructure and its maintenance nothing can get better, no matter what DB does.

Re: ICE test train reaches speeds of up to 405.0 km/h

#94

Post by usrusr »

doener wrote: post #82

This is the main point of the news: "The Erfurt-Leipzig/Halle route was used for the record-breaking journey without any modifications. According to Nagl, this shows that infrastructure investments create a solid foundation that lasts for generations. The insights gained will help with future renovations and the development of new high-speed trains. The ICE test train used was a Velaro Novo test car from Siemens Mobi…

This part is still misleading: "The ICE test train used was a Velaro Novo test car from Siemens Mobility"

The test train used is a set from the late 20th century. So old that its regular brethren are already scheduled for retirement. This is the last generation of ICE that was still using separate locomotives (and with that, limited traction) instead of powered wheelsets distributed all over the full length of the train. The only thing Velaro Novo in this demonstration is that they inserted an unpowered prototype car into the trainset.

Re: ICE test train reaches speeds of up to 405.0 km/h

#95

Post by wuschel »

chmod775 wrote: post #80
dlcarrier wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, the passenger miles per unit of energy drops geometrically, as speed increase linearly. Most of the loss is aerodynamic, so you either need a hyperloop tunnel or wings to take you into the literal stratosphere, to avoid high fuel burn at high speeds, so even if you could run the train at 400 km/hr along the whole track, it would be unlikely that any operator would do so, on a recurring basis.

I don't think cost is too much of a concern for ICEs. They are already a higher-priced option that competes with plane travel for many destinations. You can take RE trains at virtually no cost between any two cities you can dream of, yet people en-masse still happily fork over a hundred bucks to save 3-4 hours with an ICE train.

There is a distinct difference in quality of ride in ICE trains when compared to RE trains:

- For some reason, the luggage compartments in many regional RE commuter trains are an example of drug induced circus design. People can not fit larger commuter bags in there

- The seating is less comfortable

- ICE trains have priority in terms of railway usage

- The passenger group is more friendly and respectful on the ICE trains

- Great restaurant service

- ICE are faster. I can travel in 1h from Frankfurt to Cologne.

If you need the configuration for work (speed of travel, working space), then ICEs are clearly superior and worth the cost. I cringe every time I have to get into RE trains. Not because I can not handle it, I am well travelled, but because I know what I can in the other trains.

(Full Disclaimer: I spend a lot of money for the BC100 every year. It is an essential component of my life).

Re: ICE test train reaches speeds of up to 405.0 km/h

#96

Post by trueismywork »

chmod775 wrote: post #77
Hojojo wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the article is fairly clear > DB und Siemens Mobility haben bei Testfahrten einen neuen Geschwindigkeitsrekord für die Strecke Erfurt–Leipzig/Halle erreicht > Der ICE-S der DB Systemtechnik wird hauptsächlich für Test- und Messfahrten eingesetzt. Er dient dazu, neue Strecken zu testen, die Infrastruktur zu untersuchen und verschiedene Hochgeschwindigkeitsprüfungen durchzuführen The latter paragraph explic…

> I think, like usual, it's a case of people reading the title and then going off to write a comment. Yes, that's poor communication. You need to read the last half of the article to really understand what the news is about. The title should be "405,0 km/h auf Schnellfahrstrecke Erfurt–Leipzig/Halle in Testfahrt erreicht". Note that this omits mentioning a specific train.

Germans typically expect you to read full article before commenting. So for them it's not bad communication at all

Re: ICE test train reaches speeds of up to 405.0 km/h

#97

Post by holowoodman »

chmod775 wrote: post #80
dlcarrier wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, the passenger miles per unit of energy drops geometrically, as speed increase linearly. Most of the loss is aerodynamic, so you either need a hyperloop tunnel or wings to take you into the literal stratosphere, to avoid high fuel burn at high speeds, so even if you could run the train at 400 km/hr along the whole track, it would be unlikely that any operator would do so, on a recurring basis.

I don't think cost is too much of a concern for ICEs. They are already a higher-priced option that competes with plane travel for many destinations. You can take RE trains at virtually no cost between any two cities you can dream of, yet people en-masse still happily fork over a hundred bucks to save 3-4 hours with an ICE train.

[flagged]

Re: ICE test train reaches speeds of up to 405.0 km/h

#98

Post by holowoodman »

simianwords wrote: post #14
attendant3446 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly it, it's not the new top speed they need, they lack efficiency. And it's not just Deutschebahn. For example BVG, who runs busses and U-bahn in Berlin is even less reliable.

I think higher speeds can help efficiency. For example it can help catch up a train that has been delayed.

Higher speeds reduce efficiency.

The most efficient use of the tracks would be to limit all trains to the speed of the slowest train that travels a route. Then you can have minimal distances between trains.

Also, faster trains are less fuel-efficient, quadratically with speed. So a slowdown would help the environment and the throughput. The only thing it wouldn't improve is passenger happiness ;)

Re: ICE test train reaches speeds of up to 405.0 km/h

#100

Post by holowoodman »

adev_ wrote: post #75
prmoustache wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it is the same as in Switzerland, the solution is in helping people get the health care they need. Most time I got annoying delays when I was living in Switzerland was because of a "personal accident" which 99% of the time meant someone had deliberately jumped in front of a train.

> If it is the same as in Switzerland, the solution is in helping people get the health care they need. [...] Switzerland SBB/CFF and the German DB can not be compared, not even from far. The Swiss trains are amongst the best in the world in term on punctuality. Delays barely exceed few minutes most of the time. Every connection is scheduled to be done At the opposite, German trains in the eastern part are barely on…

France has a separate high-speed train network, so speed differences between high-speed (TGV) and low-speed (freight, low class passenger) trains don't cause inefficiencies.

Switzerland doesn't have high-speed trains, only low-speed ones. And all timetables are carefully tuned to half- or full-hour station distance intervals that all trains on a track take at the same speed ("Taktfahrplan").

Germany has the worst of all those worlds: No Taktfahrplan (because it probably would be impossible due to the larger and far more complex network), high- and low-speed trains on the same tracks, and only some sections of dedicated high-speed rail that drive up the cost but still have shared stations and sections with low-speed rail so that punctuality goes down when the tiniest thing goes wrong.

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