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Apple v. Samsung Verdict: Could Bill Gates Have Patented The iPhone in 1995?

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Re: Apple v. Samsung Verdict: Could Bill Gates Have Patented The iPhone in 1995?

#81
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's been ample citation of prior art, everything from prior working and publicly shown prototypes to actually shipping devices. Apple was not the first company to show a capacitive multitouch screen (LG Prada was), they were not the first to show pinch-to-zoom (numerous examples, Jeff Han, Diamond Touch, 20 years of research prototypes), they were not the first with double-tap to zoom (there's 2 decades of ZUIs,…

I love how people think Apple woke up the day before the iphone demo and threw it all together at the last second anything before that day is ironclad prior art. The light bulb was invented over 120 years ago and they still hand out patents for light bulbs, imagine that.

Well surely any demonstrations of these ideas by other parties weren't thrown together at the last second either, so what's your point?

Even in the worst case, they hint at the possibility of independent invention; imagine that.

Re: Apple v. Samsung Verdict: Could Bill Gates Have Patented The iPhone in 1995?

#82
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>so that patents are routinely granted for designs, devices, and methods that are already effectively commoditized You are confusing utility patents and design patents. They are very different things, and design patents are intended for "designs" and the designs of devices. This is not a perversion, this is just you not understanding what patents are ! Secondly you guys constantly claim that these things are not nove…

There's been ample citation of prior art, everything from prior working and publicly shown prototypes to actually shipping devices. Apple was not the first company to show a capacitive multitouch screen (LG Prada was), they were not the first to show pinch-to-zoom (numerous examples, Jeff Han, Diamond Touch, 20 years of research prototypes), they were not the first with double-tap to zoom (there's 2 decades of ZUIs,…

I'm sure several commenters will soon note, the LG Prada was not multitouch, the Prada II was multitouch, but it came out after the iPhone. The Prada's "touch" was a really fake touch... like it would show buttons but you would have to press elsewhere to act on it. The iPhone was the first multitouch phone according to Wikipedia.

Re: Apple v. Samsung Verdict: Could Bill Gates Have Patented The iPhone in 1995?

#83

Can someone explain to me (like I'm 5) exactly what, besides the general concept of list scrolling with bounce-back to indicate end of list reached, it was that Samsung copied from the 7,469,381 patent? The Apple fans here get pissed when someone argues that Apple is trying to patent an obvious "idea" and they claim that the general idea of bounce-back scrolling isn't patented, but instead it's a very specific implem…

When reading patents, only the claims matter. In this case, anything that matches claim 19, which is anything that does bounce-back scrolling the way iOS does it, is infringing.

Re: Apple v. Samsung Verdict: Could Bill Gates Have Patented The iPhone in 1995?

#84
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>so that patents are routinely granted for designs, devices, and methods that are already effectively commoditized You are confusing utility patents and design patents. They are very different things, and design patents are intended for "designs" and the designs of devices. This is not a perversion, this is just you not understanding what patents are ! Secondly you guys constantly claim that these things are not nove…

Design patents on the form of a utilitarian object become functional. People get used to handling an iphone with rounded corners. They get used to volume buttons being in a certain place, on/off buttons being in a certain place, charging/usb ports being in a certain place. Imitating those things strikes me as less of an attempt to "rip off" Apple and more of an attempt to make it easier to use for people who want to…

Is that the point of the design patent though? Fashion designers always apply for design patents. The other day I saw that Philip Morris has a patent for rounded corners on their cigarette boxes. Gucci has a patent for the shape of their handbag handles. If form can be patented, why can't Apple be allowed to do the same? If we reform the patent system and disallow all design patents, then I'm sure the fashion industry would be pretty mad, since there would be nothing preventing a competitor from creating an equivalent "ugg boots".

China is one of those places where you can't patent design, and I suppose it kind of works in a strange free-market-way. The winners are those who can copy the fastest, and have enough money to bribe politicians to shutdown the competition.

Re: Apple v. Samsung Verdict: Could Bill Gates Have Patented The iPhone in 1995?

#85
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's been ample citation of prior art, everything from prior working and publicly shown prototypes to actually shipping devices. Apple was not the first company to show a capacitive multitouch screen (LG Prada was), they were not the first to show pinch-to-zoom (numerous examples, Jeff Han, Diamond Touch, 20 years of research prototypes), they were not the first with double-tap to zoom (there's 2 decades of ZUIs,…

I love how people think Apple woke up the day before the iphone demo and threw it all together at the last second anything before that day is ironclad prior art. The light bulb was invented over 120 years ago and they still hand out patents for light bulbs, imagine that.

But people aren't patenting lightbulb interactions, they are patenting specific manufactured implementations.

Look at it this way, there were definitely people doing pinch-to-zoom that looks absolutely identical to the way Apple is doing it from the user's point of view. Jeff Han's demo is a perfect example of it. For years, many people have been doing demos like this, but they've been doing it on big bulky setups like projected-desks, or in Han's example, using total internal reflection.

Apple just made a different implementation, using the same interaction gestures, on a capacitive screen. From a software point of view, the implementations are rather trivial and don't differ much except via how you obtain the input (e.g. capacitive, FTIR, cameras, etc) The main difference is shrinking down the whole thing so it fits on a phone.

The reason why this was possible in 2007 had nothing to do with Apple's software and everything to do with the ability to manufacture a capacitive screen that has the right sensitivity, accuracy, cost, weight, and power to fit into a phone.

Apple deserves engineering props for this. But they do not get credit for inventing pinch-to-zoom nor the capacitive screen. Both of these inventions came prior.

If Apple invents an entirely new kind of touch screen and an entirely new way of manufacturing it, you could argue they deserve a patent.

But taking what existed before, pinch-to-zoom on projection displays, and implementing it on a different screen does not deserve patent protection, anymore than taking an existing business method (e.g. 'selling flower bouquets by phone', adding the text 'via web site' or 'via mobile app') and slightly tweaking the medium in which the business is done to obtain another monopoly.

Should 'internet shopping cart' be allowed a patent when real world shopping carts already existed? It's crazy absurd.

If Apple's patent had even been more specific like "pinch to zoom, but on this particular kind of screen" I'd even have more sympathy for the argument, because at least other people could do the same thing Apple did: copy an existing idea and apply it to a new circumstance. Samsung and others could innovate by creating new types of displays, maybe using microscopic cameras to track your hands like minority report or something.

But granting a patent to Apple for pinch to zoom on any kind of screen? Sorry, it goes too far.

Re: Apple v. Samsung Verdict: Could Bill Gates Have Patented The iPhone in 1995?

#86

The verdict was a monumentally stupid decision and I hope it won't prove to be too harmful in the long run. One way to look at innovation and progress is that all inventions must eventually become a commodity. Something which is novel, hard, expensive and rare today must become a cheap and ubiquitous commodity tomorrow. It is this process that allows you to "stand on the shoulders of giants" and easily leverage past…

The patent system is supposed to encourage the commoditization of inventions by using a trade-off: if you invent something novel and useful, you can get a patent that gives you a complete monopoly for a limited amount of time, but in return you have to completely disclose how your invention was made, so that, first, others can see if the intention would be useful for them right now (and thus negotiate a license with…

Note that the jury found that Samsung diluted Apple's trade dress, which is part of trademark law, not just infringed its design patents.

Re: Apple v. Samsung Verdict: Could Bill Gates Have Patented The iPhone in 1995?

#87
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The patent system is supposed to encourage the commoditization of inventions by using a trade-off: if you invent something novel and useful, you can get a patent that gives you a complete monopoly for a limited amount of time, but in return you have to completely disclose how your invention was made, so that, first, others can see if the intention would be useful for them right now (and thus negotiate a license with…

>so that patents are routinely granted for designs, devices, and methods that are already effectively commoditized You are confusing utility patents and design patents. They are very different things, and design patents are intended for "designs" and the designs of devices. This is not a perversion, this is just you not understanding what patents are ! Secondly you guys constantly claim that these things are not nove…

You keep accusing people of not understanding what patents are, but most people aren't objecting to Apple having the exclusive right to an ornamental design (even if it isn't purely ornamental). Harping on this technicality allows you to dismiss the parent poster as not knowing anything about patents as though you're some kind of expert on them, while ignoring his point.

What people object to is Apple asserting dubious patents with broad claims to block competition. Mating a general purpose computer and an algorithm to produce a "new" "machine" is a stupid loophole. Patents are supposed to be an exchange where an inventor gets a temporary monopoly while the public gets instructions for implementing a new and non-obvious "process, machine, article of manufacture, or composition of matter". You can't seriously argue that the world needed the bounce-back, data detector, or universal search patents to figure out how to accomplish those things. Patents shouldn't cover things that are, at best, features!

You might respond by pointing to Windows Phone as an example of a mobile OS that's different and NOT getting litigated over, but that's because Apple and Microsoft have cross-licensing agreements that have been in place since the last time Apple tried to pull this look-and-feel bullshit and lost.

Since you insist on using loaded language like "Android ripped off ... Apple", what evidence do you have to back that up? Also, what makes you say that the "anti-patent movement started with [Google]"? You're aware that people have had concerns about software patents long before this, right? Take Amazon's one-click patent as an example of something that stirred up a similar amount of nerd rage. It's not propaganda, just other people arriving at a pretty reasonable conclusion and stating it.

Re: Apple v. Samsung Verdict: Could Bill Gates Have Patented The iPhone in 1995?

#88
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The patent system is supposed to encourage the commoditization of inventions by using a trade-off: if you invent something novel and useful, you can get a patent that gives you a complete monopoly for a limited amount of time, but in return you have to completely disclose how your invention was made, so that, first, others can see if the intention would be useful for them right now (and thus negotiate a license with…

I'm glad to see someone highlight the fact that design patents are inherently illogical, and in fact run altogether counter to the purpose of the patent system. Too often this is obscured, and/or all patents are lumped together as being generally awful. I personally do not ascribe to the notion that all patents should be outright abolished. Design patents, however, should simply not exist. Rounded corners, rectangles…

What types of protection do you suggest a country implement to protect design/form? Trademark, copyright, and trade dress protection will not cover "design objects". If Louis Vuitton were to come out with a new fall handbag, what would they use to protect Gucci from duplicating their design and selling it under Gucci's brand?

Re: Apple v. Samsung Verdict: Could Bill Gates Have Patented The iPhone in 1995?

#89
post #74
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be really pedantic about it, it's arguable that they are inventions (someone had to be the first to put four rocks in a row), but it's such a blindly obvious "invention" that it's insanely laughable to afford it any kind of protections at all.

And that's because design, when done right, is obvious.

I think it's only obvious in hindsight. The massively popular Ugg boots are not seemingly "obvious design".

Re: Apple v. Samsung Verdict: Could Bill Gates Have Patented The iPhone in 1995?

#90
post #53
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Repeat after me: Patents do not cover ideas. Patents do not cover features. Writing about an idea or a feature in a computer science journal is not prior art. Star Trek has the warp drive. So, if someone invents the technology to give us a warp drive, you think that it isn't novel because we've seen it on TV going back to the 1960s!

If you invent a warp drive you will be awarded a patent over the implementation of it, that was never explained in ST for obvious reasons. So if you invent a real one, built to look exactly like the Star Trek one with an "interface" very similar to the one in the serie, and try to patent it's design and "interface", then Star Trek's warp drive will be prior art (for the design and interface, not the way it works). Se…

So I'm curious, how should design be protected? Unique designs come from other places besides technology -- fashion industry files design patents on almost every "unique" accessory they produce. If we were to remove design patents, something would need to fill the void as trademark/copyright wouldn't protect physically formed objects. We could argue that it shouldn't be there to begin with, but then nobody would make any money in the high-end fashion industry.
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