Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

haaretz.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

771–780 of 1001 posts

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#771

Post by like_any_other »

edanm wrote: post #744
like_any_other wrote: post #693

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd probably be considered left (or even far-left) by Israeli standards, but I'm in the "pro-Israeli" camp as conventionally understood online. Would you consider ethno-nationalists of other nations (far) left, based on (speculating) their economic/women's rights/LGBT/other social stances? (Orthogonally, I can certainly empathize with being pro-something, but not pro-everything-that-something-does. There's certainl…

> Would you consider ethno-nationalists of other nations (far) left, based on (speculating) their economic/women's rights/LGBT/other social stances? If your implication is that I'm an ethno-nationalist, I don't think that characterizes Israel or my thoughts about it, however much "ethnostate" is a favorite slur of people to use against Israel.

I do not use it as a slur, nor do I think Israel is an exception in this regard - China, Japan, Korea, Ukraine, Poland, Sudan, Finland, Egypt, are all effectively ethno-states. They may host a few minorities, but they are primarily vessels for the self-determination and preservation of their nations.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#772

Post by YZF »

troad wrote: post #762
YZF wrote: post #720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ICC is a political circus and Israel is not a signatory. It has no jurisdiction. Even if Israel was a signatory the ICC should only intervene after Israel has done its own investigation and if it failed to hold the relevant standards. If there were war crimes committed then people need to be held accountable. The scale of the alleged war crimes is totally different than the crimes persecuted in Nuremberg.

[flagged]

I am not following your logic at all.

The League of Nations had no jurisdiction over the Germans (that I'm aware of).

The matter of countries doing their own investigation is fundamental to the ICC and so is the matter of its jurisdiction being restricted to member countries. That is part of the convention that established it.

The police in contrast, in a certain country, has jurisdiction and the power to arrest criminals. The ICCs powers come from the countries that are members of it extending their powers to this body via mutual agreement.

The more proper analogy would be that me and a bunch of friends will issue an arrest warrant and put you in jail because we feel like it.

EDIT: This is known as the principle of complementarity: https://www.icc-cpi.int/about/how-the-court-works

"The ICC is intended to complement, not to replace, national criminal systems; it prosecutes cases only when States do not are unwilling or unable to do so genuinely."

Re: Jurisdiction: "In the absence of a UNSC referral of an act of aggression, the Prosecutor may initiate an investigation on his own initiative or upon request from a State Party. The Prosecutor shall first ascertain whether the Security Council has made a determination of an act of aggression committed by the State concerned. Where no such determination has been made within six months after the date of notification to the UNSC by the Prosecutor of the situation, the Prosecutor may nonetheless proceed with the investigation, provided that the Pre-Trial Division has authorized the commencement of the investigation. Also, under these circumstances, the Court shall not exercise its jurisdiction regarding a crime of aggression when committed by a national or on the territory of a State Party that has not ratified or accepted these amendments."

The Palestinians and Gaza are not a state party. Israel is not a state party. and the UNSC has not referred this to the ICC. Therefore the ICC has no jurisdiction.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#773

Post by refulgentis »

bGl2YW5j wrote: post #768
wfn wrote: post #757

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where do we place Israel on that scale That is, I think, an excellent and pertinent question. For starters may I suggest applying straightforward quantification on a linear scale and observing the results? See the following two wiki articles / subsections: 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_co... (see chart preceding the Gaza war (follow anchor)) 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties…

Wikipedia on this topic is incredibly biased to one side or the other. It’s not a valid source in this case.

Nah, it's just #s, and "both sides", as it were, are presented

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#775

Post by [deleted] »

like_any_other wrote: post #771
edanm wrote: post #744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you consider ethno-nationalists of other nations (far) left, based on (speculating) their economic/women's rights/LGBT/other social stances? If your implication is that I'm an ethno-nationalist, I don't think that characterizes Israel or my thoughts about it, however much "ethnostate" is a favorite slur of people to use against Israel.

I do not use it as a slur, nor do I think Israel is an exception in this regard - China, Japan, Korea, Ukraine, Poland, Sudan, Finland, Egypt, are all effectively ethno-states. They may host a few minorities, but they are primarily vessels for the self-determination and preservation of their nations.

[deleted]

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#776

Post by Theodores »

arp242 wrote: post #423
Theodores wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Crimea, where everyone speaks Russian and identifies as Russian Blatant falsehood. In 2014 it was about 65% (ethnicity) and 80% (language). In addition the referendum happened after the invasion and de-facto annexation, without the option of "keep the current situation with Ukraine". If you ask me "do you want to be punched or stabbed?" then I'll choose a punch. Doesn't mean I want to be punched.

I think you completely missed my point!

My point is that the 'rules based order' means different things to different people. In the West it means one thing and in the rest of the world it means something else.

My point still stands and must be acknowledged even if you are waving the blue and yellow flag, the rainbow flag and the stars and stripes. In any country that the West has brought war to, they know exactly what 'rules based order' means. You don't have to agree with them, they are just on a different team to you.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#777

Post by rendang »

like_any_other wrote: post #693
edanm wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll provide context too - I'm a Jewish Israeli. I'd probably be considered left (or even far-left) by Israeli standards, but I'm in the "pro-Israeli" camp as conventionally understood online. This Haaretz article is very troubling. To the extent it's accurate, there's not much question that it reflects war crimes. A few thoughts: 1. The article itself says there is an ongoing investigation into some of these accusat…

> I'd probably be considered left (or even far-left) by Israeli standards, but I'm in the "pro-Israeli" camp as conventionally understood online. Would you consider ethno-nationalists of other nations (far) left, based on (speculating) their economic/women's rights/LGBT/other social stances? (Orthogonally, I can certainly empathize with being pro-something, but not pro-everything-that-something-does. There's certainl…

Nationalism could be seen as a "left" movement in the first place in that it often served as an ideology of revolution against the (imperial) powers that be. There have been many prominent leftist nationalist movements and parties, from Sinn Fein to the PKK.

"ethnonationalism" is a redundancy, ethne and natio are just the Greek and Latin words for the same concept

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#778

Post by Theodores »

mopsi wrote: post #291
Theodores wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Almost no-one[1] recognizes Crimea as part of Russia because it was entirely manufactured. Unmarked foreign soldiers invaded a country, pretended to be local rebels, staged a referendum and immediately asked to join the invading country to give the shameless land grab a veneer of legitimacy. It's a total joke that has nothing in common with genuine ethnic conflicts. The referendums in Crimea and elsewhere had to be s…

You missed my point. People outside the West have a different idea of what 'riles based order' means. This does not mean they are right or that you have to agree with them. However, the fact is that they see the world differently to you. You like the West and people outside the West see the West as parasites that have used constructs such as 'rules based order' to get away with colonial exploration and whatnot.

As mentioned, you don't have to agree with them, however, it has to be acknowledged that not everyone thinks like you, and that 'rules based order' means different things to different people.

Incidentally, the global majority are not blue and yellow fanatics. China, India, Africa and South America are not on team blue and yellow.

You have your truth, they have theirs.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#780

Post by more_corn »

neepi wrote: post #659
edanm wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll provide context too - I'm a Jewish Israeli. I'd probably be considered left (or even far-left) by Israeli standards, but I'm in the "pro-Israeli" camp as conventionally understood online. This Haaretz article is very troubling. To the extent it's accurate, there's not much question that it reflects war crimes. A few thoughts: 1. The article itself says there is an ongoing investigation into some of these accusat…

I don't like getting involved in political threads but on this I have to. All information presented is mostly unverified testimony printed verbatim by the press from untrustworthy sources on both sides. It's difficult to tell what is fact and what is not. A lot of early reports in this war turned out to be false information and the rush to immediate news notification rather than quality journalism means that the head…

Sorry, but the killing of unarmed civilians seeking aid has been reported half a dozen times by many different outlets. The IDF denials are getting quite absurd. The only one suffering from disinformation is you.
Post reply on HN