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Show HN: Business.txt - Standard Proposal

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Re: Show HN: Business.txt - Standard Proposal

#71
post #56

Does anyone have the contact of people in "Data harmonization" team of Google, Facebook, Foursquare, Yelp, etc? Could you share this idea with them to see if we can discuss it further? my email is javier at touristeye.com

I worked at SAP Research on that exact subject. Many comments here were really spot on and sprung to my mind as well. Instead of responding to each one individually and as you asked for it I'll try to organize my feedback here, FWIW:

1. I wrote in another comment here (ctrl+f) but there's overlap with other standards. One of our main multi-million EU projects was about seamless integration of different standards for representing information about resources (i.e. details of a factory) when integrating between very large entities (i.e. BMW and Honda). It was more on the mathematical/computer-science side than technical (i.e. not "Is some path for business.txt better than others"). When two IT departments/armies of consultants use different standards for everything from Address to TaxReceiptCode and you try to integrate it's ugly. When it's a large N of such, you need multi-million EU-sanctioned research projects. Moral of the story: please use standards. That said:

2. There's definitely a turing tarpit[1] situation with RDFs and RDF Schema(s). As you said on github, "Other local businesses may think on adding to their website some metadata (using http://schema.org/). The problem is that it's too complicated for a non-developer". The best standard is the one being used instead of being forgotten in an hundred pages design document. If you find yourself thinking about the problems RDF (and schemas) tries to solve, please take into consideration a clear and standard one-to-one conversion between the specification and some other more established and expressive specification. For example, define an RDF Schema and a clear conversion between RDF using that schema to and from business.txt. The main benefit for the project if you take such a conversion into consideration while designing the document is that it promises a clear way for future spiders to interpret the data regardless of expressiveness and may give the more knowledgeable authors of such document that more expressiveness, where needed. The default should be clear and easy. Case in point:

3. People here commented how the address format is very American. They are right. But for ease of use, maybe the default should be American and add an option to explicitly express the address differently (i.e. different administrative entity than states) and let there be a canonical conversion to something like this, including a way to explicitly express the address using something like the Freebase schema for addresses[2]. Notice how complex are the types for the different fields, like State/Province. This is because encompassing an Address entity globally is a complex problem. Heck, in some countries usage of place descriptors ("fourth junction after the main entrance to town") is still common. I once read some research paper on it, but it eludes me at the moment.

EDIT: 4. Some people here say what's the use. I'm sure you can address this better than myself, but the main "selling point" for me is the ease of use. The focus should be on very easy defaults. Properly defining namespace URIs or microdata itemtype for example is already error-prone/requires too much thinking for the general user. I do think there may be a room for this project.

That's it for now. Too much long of an HN break as it is :-)

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_tarpit

[2] http://www.freebase.com/schema/location/mailing_address

Re: Show HN: Business.txt - Standard Proposal

#72
How well does the business.txt standard hold up against malicious behavior? For example, what happens if I want to defame Restaurant X, so I make restaurantXsucks.com and put a business.txt file in my root directory with the same address and contact information? Currently, Google Places (the service that puts stuff on Google Maps) mails a PIN to the address and requires verification before listing to mitigate this problem -- how would business.txt mitigate the problem?

Re: Show HN: Business.txt - Standard Proposal

#73
post #72

How well does the business.txt standard hold up against malicious behavior? For example, what happens if I want to defame Restaurant X, so I make restaurantXsucks.com and put a business.txt file in my root directory with the same address and contact information? Currently, Google Places (the service that puts stuff on Google Maps) mails a PIN to the address and requires verification before listing to mitigate this pr…

More simply, you're saying that this solves the updating issue but not the trust problem. This is true, but currently it's no better than what is being proposed.

Google places is good but I doubt Yelp does anything, for example, and a ton of other sites. And most people don't even know to trust google places more anyway, they'll just trust the top result on google.

Re: Show HN: Business.txt - Standard Proposal

#74
post #58

I like this idea very much and its simplicity, but it seems inevitable to me that going down this path will just recreate RDF[0] and RDF Schema. A sort of a semantic web version of Greenspun's tenth rule[1]. For those of you who want to quickly get up to speed on RDF/Schema, "A Semantic Web Primer for Object-Oriented Software Developers"[2] was to me a very good introduction. [0] From the W3C primer on RDF: "The Reso…

I'm an RDF kool-aid drinker, but removing friction for adding somewhat structured content is always OK for me. I'd rather have a standard way of converting from the business.txt format to RDF than not have the data at all.

Agreed! With the caveat that it should be both to and from (using some standard schema). Replied elsewhere to OP and addressed this as well.

Re: Show HN: Business.txt - Standard Proposal

#75

Now we need a reviews.txt so that we don't need to give control of the reviews to less than trustworthy parties. I propose: [company/product name] (URL) score: X/Y [review text] -- [next review...] E.g.: Frank's Pizza Place (http://franks.geocities.com) score: 8/10 Good service and food. Doesn't accept credit cards.

You want to trust the businesses being reviewed instead? This also wouldn't stop these sites choosing which reviews to show. The best solution is to find a site you trust.

Re: Show HN: Business.txt - Standard Proposal

#76
post #72

How well does the business.txt standard hold up against malicious behavior? For example, what happens if I want to defame Restaurant X, so I make restaurantXsucks.com and put a business.txt file in my root directory with the same address and contact information? Currently, Google Places (the service that puts stuff on Google Maps) mails a PIN to the address and requires verification before listing to mitigate this pr…

that's a really good question on which i have no answer. I will think about it.

PD: i hate when we have to complicate things because of bad human behaviours!!

Re: Show HN: Business.txt - Standard Proposal

#77
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd rather a robot hit your frontpage— and by association, your application- than hit your 404 static page? Instead of generating errors from 404s (a lot of noise), try generating errors from the same repeated 404s.

The robot will very likely hit my frontpage anyways, so I'd rather have them look (and not find) for a meta tag there than to produce an additional 404 error which will, depending on the content of said page, waste a considerable amount of bandwidth. Besides, my frontpage is either heavily fragment- or just page-cached anyways - especially for anonymous user - so it can be served directly from RAM for all intents and…

> an additional 404 error which will, depending on the content of said page, waste a considerable amount of bandwidth.

Because your 404 should be one of the heaviest pages on your site, full of graphics and surprises. Why not make a full-featured game specifically for your 404s?

Re: Show HN: Business.txt - Standard Proposal

#78
post #51

The schema is rather US-centric. For instance, many countries don't have "states". They may have other divisions, in the 0..N level range, with other names. It would be better to research and use a current, established format for international addresses.

Falsehoods programmers believe about addresses [1][2] is long-overdue. “There is a current, established format for international addresses” is probably one of them. [1] http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-b... [2] http://infiniteundo.com/post/25326999628/falsehoods-programm...

Line 1, Line 2, Line 3, Country should cover just about all cases.

Ask yourself if you really need to break out the specific components of the address. In this case you don't. As long as the user knows the correct local format, it's fine.

Re: Show HN: Business.txt - Standard Proposal

#79
post #26

So more senseless errors in my error log and more traffic caused by robots requesting a file that doesn't exist? While I applaud the idea, can we please, please have a meta-tag or header that points to the location of this file if it's available? We don't need another favicon.ico nor robots.txt

You'd rather a robot hit your frontpage— and by association, your application- than hit your 404 static page? Instead of generating errors from 404s (a lot of noise), try generating errors from the same repeated 404s.

We reduce the noise by only looking at 404s with referrers.

Re: Show HN: Business.txt - Standard Proposal

#80
Yext (http://www.yext.com/) offers a paid solution for exactly this issue - they sync local business info across 35+ different sites (Bing, Yahoo, Yelp, etc.)

Disclaimer: My significant other works there. But I wouldn't recommend it if it weren't useful/relevant/awesome.

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