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The coming civil war over general purpose computing

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Re: The coming civil war over general purpose computing

#31

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

parasubvert wrote: post #13

The issue I have with arguments from folks such as Cory is that they presume too much in favour of openness. Many prefer to be regulated rather than have to make decisions on every little detail, that's arguably the whole Apple appeal in a nutshell vs. Linux, and why it's so productive. (Distros like Ubuntu arguably do this too at a much smaller scale.) Cory is effectively advocating "technology survivalism", where n…

"The issue I have with arguments from folks such as Cory is that they presume too much in favour of openness. Many prefer to be regulated rather than have to make decisions on every little detail, that's arguably the whole Apple appeal in a nutshell vs. Linux, and why it's so productive."

I think that's a false dilemma. I agree that's the current state of things, but I don't think openness requires the burden of pervasive required configuration. I think this is more about a cultural failing among developers in the OS world. It is slowly changing.

Re: The coming civil war over general purpose computing

#32

Post by cageface »

nirvana wrote: post #28
fmstephe wrote: post #7

When I read articles like this my fears always move straight to a future where it has become harder to program for play. I appreciate that this concern is somewhat superficial compared with some of the issues raised in this article, but I feel profoundly grateful to be able to tinker with computers in my spare time. I feel this more deeply than the fear that my music collection might not survive a computer upgrade or…

This is one of the reasons I'm such a fan of Apple, despite all the misguided gruff they get here. Apple always ships free (or near free) development tools with their systems. In the Apple II days it was built in to the ROMS. Nowadays on the Mac AppStore you can download Xcode, for free. (though at one point I think it was $5 for some reason.) You can develop any mac apps you want, and run them to your hearts content…

You just have to use javascript and web technologies, but the full iOS UI is available, including things like touch tracking, gyroscope, GPS, etc.

You've obviously never developed iOS apps. You do not have access to any of the native Apple UIs through Javascript. No UIViewController, no Core Data, no iCloud, etc etc, just like every other HTML5 platform. You have some mediated access to the device but this is nothing like a real native app.

And every other platform vendor also ships free development tools.

Re: The coming civil war over general purpose computing

#33

Post by cageface »

parasubvert wrote: post #13

The issue I have with arguments from folks such as Cory is that they presume too much in favour of openness. Many prefer to be regulated rather than have to make decisions on every little detail, that's arguably the whole Apple appeal in a nutshell vs. Linux, and why it's so productive. (Distros like Ubuntu arguably do this too at a much smaller scale.) Cory is effectively advocating "technology survivalism", where n…

Apple's restrictions have little to do with controlling device owners -- they're about improving the user experience.

But Android has shown that it's possible to have a curated, restricted experience for the typical user without totally shutting out more advanced users or users with different priorities. That extra little bit of control that Apple insists on just happens to give them a tremendous amount of extra power. It's hard to imagine that this is a coincidence.

Re: The coming civil war over general purpose computing

#34

Post by cageface »

Steko wrote: post #23
tikhonj wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't see how Apple's approach is any better than good defaults with hidden configuration. Nobody is arguing that you should have to configure and manage everything yourself--just that such an option should exist and be relatively accessible. If you don't want to do it, just ignore that option; if you do, it's right there and reachable. Your argument seems to be similar to something along the lines of "porn…

"I really don't see how Apple's approach is any better than good defaults with hidden configuration. " Because nothing is really hidden? Because a decent percentage of users would download pirated apps and sideload trojans?

Thanks to jailbreaking this is rampant in the iOS world as well. Here in SE Asia I have yet to see a non-jailbroken iPhone.

Re: The coming civil war over general purpose computing

#35

Post by reedlaw »

nirvana wrote: post #28
fmstephe wrote: post #7

When I read articles like this my fears always move straight to a future where it has become harder to program for play. I appreciate that this concern is somewhat superficial compared with some of the issues raised in this article, but I feel profoundly grateful to be able to tinker with computers in my spare time. I feel this more deeply than the fear that my music collection might not survive a computer upgrade or…

This is one of the reasons I'm such a fan of Apple, despite all the misguided gruff they get here. Apple always ships free (or near free) development tools with their systems. In the Apple II days it was built in to the ROMS. Nowadays on the Mac AppStore you can download Xcode, for free. (though at one point I think it was $5 for some reason.) You can develop any mac apps you want, and run them to your hearts content…

What about the fact that you can't share programs that you write on an iPad? Apple doesn't allow code downloads inside of apps. I would hardly call Apple an open platform anymore.

Re: The coming civil war over general purpose computing

#36

Post by aethertap »

Steko wrote: post #27
veidr wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ha ha, OK I admit that analogy was too heavy-handed for the context. It didn't feel so as I wrote it, maybe because I had already walked it back from 'Arbeit macht frei', which was the first thing to come to mind. The point I wanted to make was that it feels kinda creepy when people start believe the propaganda (of a government, corporation, cult, or whatever it may be) that calls it "freedom", when it's actually the…

You're right that it's certainly not freedom that Apple is selling. The correct counterargument to Doctorow et al has to take the freedom issue head on, it looks like this: When people move from the country to a small town they are forced to give up some freedoms. When the small town turns into a large town even more. A large city, even more. I can't crank the stereo to 11 and play it at all hours every night on my b…

You make some good points, but I think it's important to make a distinction between the management of behavior by fiat and the management of behavior by response to improper actions. The examples you give for restricted behaviors are clearly valid, but they don't imply that I should not be allowed to own a stereo or TV on the chance that I might crank it to 11 or throw it out the window. I think that the issue at stake here is more closely related to the opposite case, where we would be disallowed from owning those things for fear of future misbehavior.

In my opinion, there is a profound difference between limiting a person's behavior by eliminating their ability to decide versus limiting it by responding to transgressions. The logic of limiting ability to decide ends with a gilded cage, which is something I'd prefer to avoid.

Re: The coming civil war over general purpose computing

#37

Post by hammersend »

yk wrote: post #16

Likely an important talk, however I think it is googled-down too much compared to the original talk at the 28C3 [1]. ( Android as model of a free OS is just a tribute to the organizers methinks.) In the 28C3 talk Cory developed the argument against DRM ( and locked down computers) more carefully. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUEvRyemKSg

"Android as model of a free OS is just a tribute to the organizers methinks."

Yeah, I'm sure the fact that you can download the source code to it, make any changes you want, and redistribute that source code or that you can install any app you want on an Android handset whether it's in the blessed market or not has nothing to do with it being open. Nothing at all.

Re: The coming civil war over general purpose computing

#39

Post by anigbrowl »

This misses the mark, as I've said before. Privacy is the #1 problem; just as computers and the internet make it trivially easy to copy other people's IP (agree with the existence of IP or not, it's a fact of the modern marketplace), it also makes it easy for other people to monitor you, whether those others are governments, corporate proxies for governments, corporate proxies for private interests, or private actors. Hyperbolic anxiety attacks over lockdown? GMAFB - the modern world is a hacker's nirvana compared to the functional rigidity that was the norm during the home computer revolution of the 1980s. Back then, electronic devices were much more expensive than today, so that while non-digital things like VCRs were far easier to explore with a soldering iron, they were also engineered to within an inch of their lives and were not easy to repurpose to other tasks.

The whole kerfuffle about 'general-purpose computing' is a foolish distraction. It's like citing the existence of ready-made wood furniture as evidence of a war on general-purpose carpentry. General-purpose computing is easier than ever because it's accessible at a wider range of scales than ever before, from geek-friendly microcontroller kits to distributed clustering architectures. The issue is privacy, and the fact is that the US doesn't have a well-defined legal standard for it, nor any authority dedicated to its preservation.

On the up side, while this is going to lead to a good deal of conflict I have hope that most of that is going to take place within markets and via legislatures.

Re: The coming civil war over general purpose computing

#40

Post by parasubvert »

novalis wrote: post #25
parasubvert wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has nothing to do with Apple's money. The carrier's money, sure. And things like trust, battery life, etc. But that's everywhere.

So actively enforcing a way for the carrier to exploit for further income doesn't bring preferenciality when being picked up by said carrier as a middle stage profit model enabler ? Should we all show this good will towards all brands and just call all lock downs the greatest neutral thing ever because they are clearly just the bios chips makers fault ? Who wins with stuff like that. It's not like those sorts of acti…

I think you're reading more into my statement than was there.

The carriers in the USA, and their behaviours, are reality. They enforce restrictions. Therefore, phones are restricted. If you root your phone, and use features your carrier don't want used, they can fire you as a customer. Apple enabling features or apps that get you fired won't win them any fans other than hardcore technical folks that want to live on the edge.

The way to change that is... either a) market competition, which is extremely difficult due to capital needs owing to the sheer size of the USA, or b) regulation, as in Europe.

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