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Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

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Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#201

Post by boudin »

charcircuit wrote: post #200
boudin wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a really weird way to look at it. In reality nvidia just chose to not invest in it. This sums it up: https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2016/09/to-eglstream-... Gnome did land eglstream support by the way, xwayland as well. I think kde too at some point (not sure about that). Nvidia had a lot of options on the table: - allow nouveau to reclock gpus or, better, collaborate with them so that at least there's…

>In reality nvidia just chose to not invest in it. This sums it up This article is proving my point. People were not willing to work with Nvidia and would prefer to stick to their unstandardized Mesa specific approach with gbm. As a path forward Nvidia tried proposing a cross platform open standard that would solve not only wayland's use case, which to me appears as Nvidia going above in investment. >allow nouveau to…

So much bad faith...

> This article is proving my point. People were not willing to work with Nvidia and would prefer to stick to their unstandardized Mesa specific approach with gbm. As a path forward Nvidia tried proposing a cross platform open standard that would solve not only wayland's use case, which to me appears as Nvidia going above in investment.

Kwin, gnome and xwayland did end up supporting eglstream, it was shit, people blamed wayland because it became a sport, nvidia did go gdm in the end and the eglstream backends which were a waste of time were dropped.

> Nouveau able to if they load the proper firmware onto the GPU.

Nvidia explicitly prevented them to do so by not providing the ability to load any firmware...

> As I mentioned GBM was tightly coupled with Mesa, so that wasn't directly possible.

It absolutely was and their driver is using GBM now as a proof.

> This is an unreasonable demand, that would never happen. Saying that Wayland won't work on Nvidia hardware because they won't open source the driver and port it to Mesa just shows how stubborn and uncooperative one is as opposed to trying to find solutions to deliver user value.

Why so? Most manufacturer do so.

> There was never anything nvidia only in this situation. The only "only" was gbm being a proprietary API that was only a part of Mesa.

GBM is specific to mesa maybe but far from proprietary what world do you live in? :D

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#202

Post by charcircuit »

boudin wrote: post #201
charcircuit wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In reality nvidia just chose to not invest in it. This sums it up This article is proving my point. People were not willing to work with Nvidia and would prefer to stick to their unstandardized Mesa specific approach with gbm. As a path forward Nvidia tried proposing a cross platform open standard that would solve not only wayland's use case, which to me appears as Nvidia going above in investment. >allow nouveau to…

So much bad faith... > This article is proving my point. People were not willing to work with Nvidia and would prefer to stick to their unstandardized Mesa specific approach with gbm. As a path forward Nvidia tried proposing a cross platform open standard that would solve not only wayland's use case, which to me appears as Nvidia going above in investment. Kwin, gnome and xwayland did end up supporting eglstream, it…

>Kwin, gnome and xwayland did end up supporting eglstream, it was shit

Something is better than nothing.

>nvidia did go gdm in the end and the eglstream backends which were a waste of time were dropped.

If the wayland project was run better and there was proper collaboration this waste could have been avoided.

>Nvidia explicitly prevented them to do so by not providing the ability to load any firmware...

How would the GPU know? They should be able to do exactly what the real driver does to load the firmware.

>It absolutely was and their driver is using GBM now as a proof.

Only years later after due to Nvidia contributing code to allow for it to dynamically load backends. This wasn't a case of Nvidia ignoring an existing way for them to have a backend.

>Why so? Most manufacturer do so.

Because it's a trade secret and potentially can not be legally be open sourced. It also is a competitive advantage for nvidia not to. Plenty of companies also develop closed source drivers. Nvidia is not unique.

>GBM is specific to mesa maybe but far from proprietary

Recheck the definition of "proprietary." Compare how many GPUs and operating systems support OpenGL vs supporting GBM. GBM being exclusive to Mesa makes it proprietary.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#203

Post by kloop »

bsder wrote: post #106
palata wrote: post #52

I don't get the Xorg vs Wayland fight. Feels like it mostly coming from people who don't contribute to either of them. If you like Xorg, use Xorg. If you like Wayland, use Wayland. If you're not happy about an issue, contribute to it.

> If you like Xorg, use Xorg. If you like Wayland, use Wayland. If you're not happy about an issue, contribute to it. The problem is that RedHat nee IBM are attempting to force everybody onto Wayland by dropping X11 support. They already tried once and the outcry was so huge that they had to back off saying they would try again next version. This is kind of a rock and a hard place. The Wayland developers don't want t…

> The Wayland developers don't want to support X11 but neither does anybody else.

You can't say that in a thread about the main maintainer forking it because he wants to maintain it against the wishes of the original maintainers.

This post is literally about someone wanting to maintain it.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#204

Post by boudin »

charcircuit wrote: post #202
boudin wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So much bad faith... > This article is proving my point. People were not willing to work with Nvidia and would prefer to stick to their unstandardized Mesa specific approach with gbm. As a path forward Nvidia tried proposing a cross platform open standard that would solve not only wayland's use case, which to me appears as Nvidia going above in investment. Kwin, gnome and xwayland did end up supporting eglstream, it…

>Kwin, gnome and xwayland did end up supporting eglstream, it was shit Something is better than nothing. >nvidia did go gdm in the end and the eglstream backends which were a waste of time were dropped. If the wayland project was run better and there was proper collaboration this waste could have been avoided. >Nvidia explicitly prevented them to do so by not providing the ability to load any firmware... How would th…

You should think before you write something... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprietary_software

https://docs.mesa3d.org/systems.html

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#205

Post by queenkjuul »

jauntywundrkind wrote: post #181
queenkjuul wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

End of the day people buy Nvidia because they need to (CUDA/AI/ML) not because of ideology or driver architecture. Shit just needs to work and bottom line is no matter who's to blame, Wayland doesn't work for every use case that X does.

I want to emphasize again that most people at this point don't have a problem running Sway on Nvidia. It's been working adequately for years, stably. In the past ~18 months especially, Nvidia seems to have been updating their closed source drivers much more actively as well, which is positive to see. As far as I know, the top poster having issues has taken no steps to report the issue, send coredumps, do any follow u…

I'm not uninformed, and i don't "not care," i agree X needs replacing and i wish all the best to Wayland as a project.

Unfortunately, it doesn't do what i need, today. So what am i supposed to do? I'm going to keep using what does what i need until a viable alternative emerges. Nothing political about it.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#206

Post by sreekotay »

lelanthran wrote: post #172
jauntywundrkind wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AMD has great open source drivers that work wonderfully everywhere. Even their old hardware keeps getting amazing upgrades & enhancements, a decade+ latter! Word on the street is Nvidia is doing a much much better job, for a year or so now. But, like, you are using a GPU that sway used to make you type "--i-wont-buy-an-nvidia-gpu-again" and now makes you type --unsupported-gpu to use. It's not Wayland's fault if your…

Meh. I don't care about the details of why it won't work, I'll just keep using the product that does work. The number of paragraphs used to explain why the non-working product does not work would be better spent simply pointing people to the working product.

do you have any examples of this online to play with? I see the samples in the arvix doc and some documenation at github but not examples I can see live.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#207

Post by jeroenhd »

soraminazuki wrote: post #117
Lariscus wrote: post #36

[flagged]

> The main dev, apart from being a reactionary nutjob This is honestly an understatement. Posting antivax conspiracy theories on LKML? Reactionary. Writing anti-DEI rants in his REAMDE and COC files? Reactionary. But this long-winded rant [1] defending WW2 Germany? "Reactionary" doesn't even begin to describe it. Whatever one's opinion on Wayland, his conduct [2] should be a huge red flag to anyone using his software…

I'm not going to touch the Holocaust or AfD shtick, but when it comes to "causes of the second world war", the things the allies did to Germany after the first world war are pretty high up there.

Should the Germans have started invading countries and slaughtering millions of innocent people? Obviously not. But the way the German people were treated was going to lead to war, eventually, and it almost seems like the treaty of Versailles was engineered that way. Unfortunately, the guy that managed to unite enough German people to start the war was a nazi instead of a Napoleon.

When it came to the war itself, the allies and the Germans were no worse than each other. Obviously the mass murder the Germans were doing makes their side the "bad" side of the war, but if it hadn't been for the Holocaust I doubt the lines would be all that clear. At the end of the war, cities were bombed and razed to the ground out of revenge and bloodlust, not out of military strategy. It's amazing what you can get away with if you're on the "right" side at the end of a war.

I think this guy's speech is full of right wing rethoric that's often a dog whistle for the far right, but he's not "defending WW2 Germany" as a reactionary. If I were German, I'd be happy that Hitler's legacy is in crumbles and that many of the horrible people doing his bidding got what they deserved, but I'd be pretty pissed off that Churchill and his people never had to face any tribunals.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#208

Post by jubalfh »

MrArthegor wrote: post #12
erk__ wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main author is the person in Linus yells at here: https://www.theregister.com/2021/06/11/linus_torvalds_vaccin...

Honestly the belief of the developers don’t matter at the end of the day. The quality of code is the only thing who matters. And I don’t imply the quality of code is good or not, I have no idea.

i don't know about you, but i generally do not want to work with people whose political beliefs include that my country is illegitimate or that hitler's rise to power was caused by the polish and the british doing bad things to the germans.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#209

Post by NM64 »

solid_fuel wrote: post #185
bsder wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erm, what do you want to learn? Wayland dates to 2008--Vulkan dates to 2016. That's an EON in tech. Wayland chose "we will control the compositing to avoid all tearing". This is suboptimal nowadays with monitors with multiple refresh rates some of which are on completely different graphics cards. It's better to let an application have a Vulkan (or equivalent) surface, draw to it, query, and choose its own linkage to…

> Vulkan can be substituted with Direct12 or Metal which are effectively the exact same graphics API Just for clarity, have they actually converged to the point where the APIs are that similar? Or do you just mean they fill the same role?

I'm not OP, but it's worth noting that at least Vulkan and D3D12 have a common ancestor in the form of AMD's Mantle API.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#210

Post by NM64 »

bsder wrote: post #187
solid_fuel wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Vulkan can be substituted with Direct12 or Metal which are effectively the exact same graphics API Just for clarity, have they actually converged to the point where the APIs are that similar? Or do you just mean they fill the same role?

They have converged to the point that the APIs are extremely similar. To the point that you can add a translation layer from Vulkan to Metal (MoltenVK) and lose very little performance, for example. The concurrency primitives are very similar. The way they all manage memory is a little different, but not horribly so. And now that DirectX and Vulkan are both supporting SPIR-V as the shader intermediate format, things…

Don't forget that AMD's Mantle API is the common ancestor for both Vulkan and D3D12.
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