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Ask YC: How can you recruit and reward non-founder programmers at early stages?

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Re: Ask YC: How can you recruit and reward non-founder programmers at early stages?

#11

Post by vaksel »

cstejerean wrote: post #6
vaksel wrote: post #4

well right now the ball is in your court. There really aren't that many jobs out there, so you can get a decent programmer who'll take the pay cut just to have a job. But you do have some other options. You can give out different titles, lets say someone is just starting out, and you start calling them senior developer on paper, no impact now, but for their next job they'll be able to ask for a lot more money . The s…

"There really aren't that many jobs out there, so you can get a decent programmer who'll take the pay cut just to have a job." Taking a pay cut is one thing, working for free (just equity) is something else entirely. Not sure if the current situation gives you any kind of an advantage to recruit people for equity only compensation. (If I understand the top post correctly).

well I didn't mean equity only, I was more thinking of perks on top of salary to get the candidates. If someone is working for equity only they are a co-founder in my book.

Re: Ask YC: How can you recruit and reward non-founder programmers at early stages?

#12

Post by m0nty »

My own experience of working in a startup (Bubble 1.0) was that (as techies) the web designer and I were completely ignored and counted out of the decision-making processes, even for deeply technical matters. I think this stemmed from the insecurity of the boss, and his second-in-command who was supposed to be "a marketing genius" but somehow never achieved his full potential ;)

Anyway, we were excluded from meetings, and even when we were invited it was only for show and we were told to leave whenever the grown-ups had to make real decisions. The boss started showing people around the office saying "This is our accounts person, Jo. And our support person, David. Oh, and we've got a couple of geeks out the back but I won't bother introducing you to them."

This was an extreme example but it's often similar to that wherever I've worked: techies are viewed with a mixture of suspicion and contempt. If you can get over that and allow all your people to engage in decision-making (not always possible, but desirable, I believe) you will find it easier to retain them, despite lower salaries, etc. You probably know much of this anyway but it's worth keeping it in mind and using it to "sell" the job to potential applicants.

Re: Ask YC: How can you recruit and reward non-founder programmers at early stages?

#13

Post by racy_rick »

geoffc wrote: post #3

5-10% depending on the quality of the developer is what I have done in the past and as soon as we start making cash they start getting paid. Also I only do this deal with folks I know well as it is so much more complicated than standard hiring.

You could always pay the person. Is that out of the question. Too often the payoff in the end is not worth it for programmers. They could have just worked a nominal job doing something else and actually make more money.

Unless there is a surefire payoff, get some investor money and pay them what they are worth.

Re: Ask YC: How can you recruit and reward non-founder programmers at early stages?

#14

Post by racy_rick »

vaksel wrote: post #4

well right now the ball is in your court. There really aren't that many jobs out there, so you can get a decent programmer who'll take the pay cut just to have a job. But you do have some other options. You can give out different titles, lets say someone is just starting out, and you start calling them senior developer on paper, no impact now, but for their next job they'll be able to ask for a lot more money . The s…

That is a great idea. 4 day workweek is enticing. Perhaps I'll be asking for that next.

Re: Ask YC: How can you recruit and reward non-founder programmers at early stages?

#15

Post by geoffc »

rs wrote: post #7
dazzawazza wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So much more complicated is an understatement. Complications with IP, firing and sickness spring to mind. If you know the person well you still need to be careful with the contract but you should be less likely to fire them and get into an argument about equity.

To think about it, knowing the person well might even be worse if you end up in a sticky situation. Not only have you just lost a friend, but your reputation as well. Moreover, chances are high that he/she will be in the same social circles as you - which ends up getting even more messy

To clarify when I say know well I don't mean friends I mean people who I know have the coding chops to be worth the equity and pitfalls. I'm never had any luck telling how good a coder is without working with them for 3-6 months, after that it is obvious :-)

Re: Ask YC: How can you recruit and reward non-founder programmers at early stages?

#16

Post by moe »

We're in the same boat here and found equity share plus an adequate (although not exactly "market level") honorary a good balance.

It lowers the barrier of entry for the would-be partner because he'll at least get something out of it immediately which is still better than working on promises alone. It's also attractive for us because we obviously don't want to give away too much of our equity early on. Remember: equity can only be given out once, cash will hopefully be a regenerative resource.

Btw we're looking for flash devs, drop me a line if interested.

Re: Ask YC: How can you recruit and reward non-founder programmers at early stages?

#18

Post by GiantCrayon »

Not to sound simplistic, but I think most any coder would work for a modest salary if the work were meaningful or exciting to him/her. My first job (coding) was for a company that made special software for financing insurance premiums. No offense to anyone in that field, but to me, it wasn't a terribly interesting subject matter.

On the other hand, I regularly see offers of people willing to volunteer on iPhone game projects just so they can learn the ropes -- it's just that interesting to them.

So, perhaps you should only offer the equity/money/bennies after you've found someone who's passionate.

Re: Ask YC: How can you recruit and reward non-founder programmers at early stages?

#19

Post by andrewparker »

The equity slice in compensation depends on the salary and the stage of the company.

When the company is just a drawing on a scrap of napkin and no way to pay salary, it may require as much as 10-30% of the company to convince someone to come code for you. Based on this equity slice, the person would be essentially a founder.

When your company is a small prototype and can only pay enough salary to cover food, rent, etc, then you're probably looking at 2-8% of the company based on experience.

When the company is a couple thousand man-hours of code and you can pay a basic intro-level salary, then you're probably looking at 0.5-2% of the company, depending on experience.

Re: Ask YC: How can you recruit and reward non-founder programmers at early stages?

#20

Post by cnu »

vaksel wrote: post #4

well right now the ball is in your court. There really aren't that many jobs out there, so you can get a decent programmer who'll take the pay cut just to have a job. But you do have some other options. You can give out different titles, lets say someone is just starting out, and you start calling them senior developer on paper, no impact now, but for their next job they'll be able to ask for a lot more money . The s…

Wouldn't you like to have first few programmers to be interested enough to work for 12 hours a day, all days a week than to let him think that getting a low pay means I can do a crappy work for 4 days?
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