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Guess I'm a rationalist now

scottaaronson.blog

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Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#601
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the whole tree of responses under this comment and I could only convince myself that when people have no arguments they try to make you look bad. Most of criticisms are just "But they think they are better than us !" and the rest is "But sometimes they are wrong !" I don't know about the community and couldn't care less but their writings have brought me some almost life saving fresh air in how to think about…

Here's a theory of what's happening, both with you here in this comment section and with the rationalists in general. Humans are generally better at perceiving threats than they are at putting those threats into words. When something seems "dangerous" abstractly, they will come up with words for why---but those words don't necessarily reflect the actual threat, because the threat might be hard to describe. Neverthele…

> Humans are generally better at perceiving threats than they are at putting those threats into words.

Not only that, but this is exactly the kind of scenario where we should be giving those signals the most weight: The individual estimating whether to join up with a tribe. (As opposed to, say, bad feelings about doing calculus.)

Not only does it involve humans-predicting-humans (where we have a rather privileged set of tools) but there have been millions of years of selective pressure to be decent at it.

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#602
post #408

The article made me think deeper about what rubs me the wrong way about the whole movement I think there is some inherent tension btwn being "rational" about things and trying to reason about things from first principle.. And the general absolutist tone of the community. The people involved all seem very... Full of themselves ? They don't really ever show a sense of "hey, I've got a thought, maybe I haven't considere…

Calling yourself rationalists: frames everyone else as irrational. It reminds me Kier Starmers Labour, calling themselves "the adults in the room". Its a cheap framing trick, belying an emptiness on the people using it.

I agree 100%, and that's my main issue with them. To build a group with its identity centered around "we form our opinions with logical inquiry from first principles" implies that you think that everyone else is doing something else. In reality, we just end up with a lot of worldviews and arguments that seem suspiciously like they are nothing more than people advocating for their own interests using some sophistry that is compelling enough (to them) to trick themselves into thinking they have other motivations.

When ones find themself mentioning Aella as one of the members taking their movement "in new directions," then they should stop and ask whether they are the insightful well rounded person with much to say about all sorts of things, or whether they are just a very gifted computer scientist who is still not well rounded enough to recognize a legitimate dimwit like Aella when they see one.

And in general, I do feel like they suffer from "I am a genius at X, so my take on Y should be given special consideration." If you're in a group where everyone's talking about physics and almost none of them are physicists, then run. I'm still surprised at how little consideration these people give philosophy and the centuries of its written thought. Some engineers spend a decade or more building up math and science skills to the point that they can be effective practitioners, but then they think they can hop right into philosophical discussions with no background. Then when they try to analyze a problem philosophically, their brief (or no) experience means that they reason themselves into dead-end positions like philosophical skepticism that were tackled in a variety of ways over the past centuries.

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might kind of point to real life people having too much of what is now called, "rationality" , and very little of what used to be called "wisdom" ?

Wisdom tends to resemble shallow aphorisms despite being framed as universal. Rather than interrogating wisdom's relevance or depth, many people simply repeat it uncritically as a shortcut to insight. This reflects more about how people use wisdom than the content itself, but I believe that behavior contributes to our perception of the importance of wisdom. It frequently reduces complex problems into comfortable over…

I have enjoyed learning the context and original meaning behind many of these aphorisms and words of wisdom, and that is the true utility of learning them, so that you can subvert them and invert them. Cultural touchstones have value because of shared context. The specific utility and applicability of wisdom varies because conversation is context specific and outcome dependent based on the adversarial vs collaborative nature of the dialogue.

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#604
post #263
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And today the railroad system in the USA sucks compared to other developed countries and even China. It turns out that boom-and-bust capitalism isn’t great for building something that needs to evolve over centuries. Perhaps American AI efforts will one day be viewed similarly. “Yeah, they had an early rush, lots of innovation, high valuations, and robber barons competing. Today it’s just stale old infra despite the h…

> And today the railroad system in the USA sucks compared to other developed countries and even China. Nonsense. The US has the largest freight rail system in the world, and is considered to have the most efficient rail system in the world to go along with it. There isn't much in the way of passenger service, granted, but that's because people in the US aren't, well, poor. They can afford better transportation option…

This analysis seems wrong for at least a couple of reasons.

1. Freight is easier to manage and has better economics on a dedicated network. The US freight network is extremely efficient as others have pointed out. Other networks, e.g., Germany, instead prioritized passenger service. In Germany rail moves a small proportion of freight (19%) compared to trucks. [0] It's really noticeable on the Autobahn and unlike the US where a lot of truck traffic is intermodal loads.

2. The US could have better rail service by investing in passenger networks. Instead we have boondoggles like the California high-speed rail project which has already burned through 10s of billions of dollars with no end in sight. [1] Or the New Jersey Transit system which I had the pleasure to ride on earlier today to Newark Airport. It has pretty good coverage but needs investment.

[0] https://dhl-freight-connections.com/en/trends/global-freight...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_High-Speed_Rail

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They remind me of the "Effective Altruism" crowd who get completely wound up in these hypothetical logical thought exercises and end up coming to insane conclusions that they feel trapped in because they got there using pure logic. Not realizing that their initial conditions were highly artificial so any conclusion they reach is only of academic value. There is a term for this. "Getting stuck up your own butt." It wo…

The overlap between the Effective Altruism community and the Rationalist community is extremely high. They’re largely the same people. Effective Altruism gained a lot of early attention on LessWrong, and the pessimistic focus on AI existential risk largely stems from an EA desire to avoid “temporal-discounting” bias. The reasoning is something like: if you accept that future people count just as much as current peopl…

For anyone who takes Effective Altruism or Rationalism seriously I strongly recommend reading "You Are Not a Gadget" It was written more than ten years ago and was so prescient about the issues of social media and also contained one of the most devastating problems with EA, the idea of a circle of empathy.

You don't have to agree with any of this. I am not defending every idea the author has. But I recommend that book.

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They remind me of the "Effective Altruism" crowd who get completely wound up in these hypothetical logical thought exercises and end up coming to insane conclusions that they feel trapped in because they got there using pure logic. Not realizing that their initial conditions were highly artificial so any conclusion they reach is only of academic value. There is a term for this. "Getting stuck up your own butt." It wo…

I read the whole tree of responses under this comment and I could only convince myself that when people have no arguments they try to make you look bad. Most of criticisms are just "But they think they are better than us !" and the rest is "But sometimes they are wrong !" I don't know about the community and couldn't care less but their writings have brought me some almost life saving fresh air in how to think about…

Ever had a conversation with someone who literally cannot reexamine their base principles? Like, it's functionally impossible for them? That's everyone's central criticism of rationalists.

Being able to do that is pretty much "entry level cognition" for a lot of us. You should be doing that yourself and doing it all the time if you want to play with the big kids.

One of the things I really miss about the old nerds-only programmer's pit setup was the amount of room we had for instruction, especially regarding social issues. The scenes from the college department in Wargames were really on the nose, but highlight a form of education that was unavoidable if you couldn't just dip out of a conversation.

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Therefore, nothing can produce greater positive expected value than preventing existential risks—so working to reduce these risks becomes the highest priority. Incidentally, the flaw in this theory is in thinking you understand what all the existential risks are . Suppose you clock "malicious AI" as a huge risk and then hamper AI, but it turns out the bigger risk is not doing space exploration, which AI would have…

That's only one flaw in the theory. There are others, such as the unproven, narcissistic and frankly unlikely-to-be-true assumption that humanity continuing to exist is a net positive in the long run.

A net positive for whom?

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As Adam Becker shows in his book, EAs started out being reasonable "give to charity as much as you can, and research which charities do the most good" but have gotten into absurdities like "it is more important to fund rockets than help starving people or prevent malaria because maybe an asteroid will hit the Earth, killing everyone, starving or not".

It's also not a very big leap from "My purpose is to do whatever is the greatest good" to "It doesn't matter if I hurt people as long as the overall net result is good (by some arbitrary standard)"

This isn’t a hypothetical leap either. This thinking directly lead to the murders committed by the zizians.

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that chemistry, physics, and mathematics, are engaged in a program of understanding their subject in terms of the sort of first principles that Descartes was after. Reduction of the subject to a set of simpler thoughts that are outside of it. Biologists stand out because they have already given up on that idea. They may still seek to simplify complex things by refining principles of some kind, but it's a "wha…

On the other hand, bio is the branch of science with a single accepted "theory of everything": evolution.

Evolution is a theory of the origin of species via natural selection of heritable traits; evolution is not a theory of biogenesis, the origin of life itself.

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They remind me of the "Effective Altruism" crowd who get completely wound up in these hypothetical logical thought exercises and end up coming to insane conclusions that they feel trapped in because they got there using pure logic. Not realizing that their initial conditions were highly artificial so any conclusion they reach is only of academic value. There is a term for this. "Getting stuck up your own butt." It wo…

The overlap between the Effective Altruism community and the Rationalist community is extremely high. They’re largely the same people. Effective Altruism gained a lot of early attention on LessWrong, and the pessimistic focus on AI existential risk largely stems from an EA desire to avoid “temporal-discounting” bias. The reasoning is something like: if you accept that future people count just as much as current peopl…

What's the seductive-but-wrong part of EA? As far as I can tell, the vast majority of the opposition to it boils down to "Maybe you shouldn't donate money to pet shelters when people are dying of preventable diseases" vs "But donating money to pet shelters feels better!"
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