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Guess I'm a rationalist now

scottaaronson.blog

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Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#481
post #39

I've never thought ill of Scott Aaronson and have often admired him and his work when I stumble across it. However, reading this article about all these people at their "Galt's Gultch", I thought — "oh, I guess he's a rhinoceros now" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhinoceros_(play) Here's a bad joke for you all — What's the difference between a "rationalist" and "rationalizer"? Only the incentives.

Upvote for the play link - that's interesting and I hadn't heard of it before. Worthy of a top-level post IMO.

I heard of the play originally from Chapter 10 of On Tyranny by Timothy Snyder:

https://archive.org/details/on-tyranny-twenty-lessons-from-t...

Which I did post top-level here on November 7th - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42071791

Unfortunately it didn't a lot of traction and dang told me that there wasn't a way to re-up or "second chance" the post due to the HN policy on posts "correlated with political conflict".

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#482

The article made me think deeper about what rubs me the wrong way about the whole movement I think there is some inherent tension btwn being "rational" about things and trying to reason about things from first principle.. And the general absolutist tone of the community. The people involved all seem very... Full of themselves ? They don't really ever show a sense of "hey, I've got a thought, maybe I haven't considere…

for me it was very easy to determine what rubs me the wrong way: >I guess I'm a rationalist now. >Aren't you the guy who's always getting into arguments who's always right?

In fairness, that's (allegedly, at least; I guess he could be lying) a quotation from another person. If someone came up to you and said "Aren't you the guy who's essentially[1] always right?", wouldn't you too be inclined to quote them, whether you agreed with them or not?

[1] S.A. actually quoted the person as follows: "You’re Scott Aaronson?! The quantum physicist who’s always getting into arguments on the Internet, and who’s essentially always right, but who sustains an unreasonable amount of psychic damage in the process?" which differs in several ways from what reverendsteveii falsely presents as a direct quotation.

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#483

I think I'm missing something important. My understanding of "Rationalists" is that they're followers of rationalism; that is, that truth can be understood only through intellectual deduction, rather than sensory experience. I'm wondering if this is a _different_ kind of "Rationalist." Can someone explain?

The easiest way to understand their usage of the term "rational" might be to think of it as the negation of the term "irrational" (where the latter refers mostly to cognitive biases). Not as a contrast with "empirical."

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#484
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the whole community side to rationality is, at best, questionable. But the tools of thought that the literature describes are invaluable with one very important caveat . The moment you think something like "I am more correct than this other person because I am a rationalist" is the moment you fail as a rationalist. It is an incredibly easy mistake to make. To make effective use of the tools, you need to become…

Chapter 67. https://www.readthesequences.com/Knowing-About-Biases-Can-Hu... (And since it's in the book, and people know about it, obviously they're not doing it themselves.)

Also that the Art needs to be about something else than itself, and a dozen different things. This failure mode is well known in the community; Eliezer wrote about it to death, and so did others.

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They remind me of the "Effective Altruism" crowd who get completely wound up in these hypothetical logical thought exercises and end up coming to insane conclusions that they feel trapped in because they got there using pure logic. Not realizing that their initial conditions were highly artificial so any conclusion they reach is only of academic value. Do you have examples of that? I have a different perception, mo…

As Adam Becker shows in his book, EAs started out being reasonable "give to charity as much as you can, and research which charities do the most good" but have gotten into absurdities like "it is more important to fund rockets than help starving people or prevent malaria because maybe an asteroid will hit the Earth, killing everyone, starving or not".

It seems very odd to criticize the group that most reliably and effectively funds global health and malaria prevention for this.

What is your alternative? What's your framework that makes you contribute to malaria prevention more or more effectively than EAs do? Or is the claim instead that people should shut down conversation within EA that strays from the EA mode?

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#486

The article made me think deeper about what rubs me the wrong way about the whole movement I think there is some inherent tension btwn being "rational" about things and trying to reason about things from first principle.. And the general absolutist tone of the community. The people involved all seem very... Full of themselves ? They don't really ever show a sense of "hey, I've got a thought, maybe I haven't considere…

It's basically a secular religion. Substitute God with AI or the concept of rationality and use "first principles"/Bayesianism in an extremely dogmatic manner similar to Catechism and you have the Rationalist/AI Alignment/Effective Altruist movement. Ironically, this is how plenty of religious movements started off - basically as formalizations of philosophy and ethics that fused with what is basically lore and world…

This complaint seems to amount to "They believe something is very important, just like religious people do, therefore they're basically a religion". Which feels to me like rather too broad a notion of "religion".

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#487

Probably the most useful book ever written about topics adjacent to capital-R Rationalism is "Neoreaction, A Basilisk: Essays on and Around the Alt-Right" [1], by Elizabeth Sandifer. Though the topic of the book is nominally the Alt-Right, a lot more of it is about the capital-R Rationalist communities and individuals that incubated the neoreactionary movement that is currently dominant in US politics. It's probably…

Ironically, bringing this topic up always turns the conversation to ad-hominem attacks about the messenger while completely ignoring the subject matter. That's exactly the type of argument rationalists claim to despise, but it gets brought up whenever inconvenient arguments appear about their own communities. All of the comments dismissing the content because of the author or refusing to acknowledge the arguments because it feels like a "smear" are admitting their inability to judge an argument on their own merits.

If anyone wants to actually engage with the topic instead of trying to ad-hominem it away, I suggest at least reading Scott Alexander's own words on why he so frequently engages in neoreactionary topics: https://www.reddit.com/r/SneerClub/comments/lm36nk/comment/g...

Some select quotes:

> First is a purely selfish reason - my blog gets about 5x more hits and new followers when I write about Reaction or gender than it does when I write about anything else, and writing about gender is horrible. Blog followers are useful to me because they expand my ability to spread important ideas and network with important people.

> Third is that I want to spread the good parts of Reactionary thought

> Despite considering myself pretty smart and clueful, I constantly learn new and important things (like the crime stuff, or the WWII history, or the HBD) from the Reactionaries. Anything that gives you a constant stream of very important new insights is something you grab as tight as you can and never let go of.

In this case, HBD means "human biodiversity" which is the alt-right's preferred term for racialism, or the division of humans into races with special attention to the relative intelligence of those different races. This is an oddly recurring theme on Scott Alexander's work. He even wrote a coded blog post to his followers about how he was going to deny it publicly while privately holding it to be very correct.

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#488

Well that was a whole thing. I especially liked the existential threat of Cade Metz. But ultimately, I think the great oracle of Chicago got this whole thing right when he said: -Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me." Good point there. After all, he was the walrus. I could be the w…

> Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself There's an -ism for that. Actually, a few different ones depending on the exact angle you look at the it from: solipsism, narcissism,...

> There's an -ism for that

It's Buddhism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anattā

> Actually, a few different ones depending on the exact angle you look at the it from: solipsism, narcissism,...

That is indeed a problem with it. The Buddhist solution is to make you promise not to do that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhicitta

And the (well, a) term for the entire problem is "non-dual awareness".

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>they bought mansions for team building They bought one mansion to host fundraisers with the super-rich, which I believe is an important correction. You might disagree with that reasoning as well, but it's definitely not as described.

Wytham Abbey was bought mainly to host internal workshops and "retreats", as outlined by the people who bought it https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/xof7iFB3uh8Kc53bG/... https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/yggjKEeehsnmMYnZd/... As far as I know it's never hosted an impress-the-oligarch fundraiser, which as you say would at least have a logic behind it[1] even if it might seem distasteful. For a philosop…

Ah, fair enough! I had heard the "hosting wealthy donors" as the primary motivation, but it appears to be secondary. My bad.

>As far as I know it's never hosted an impress-the-oligarch fundraiser

As far as I know, they only hosted 3 events there before deciding to sell, so this is low-information.

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#490
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there's a name for it. They're dumbasses. “[...] Clevinger was one of those people with lots of intelligence and no brains, and everyone knew it except those who soon found it out. In short, he was a dope." - Joseph Heller, Catch-22 https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7522733-in-short-clevinger-...

You mean people projecting this problem onto them with zero evidence beyond their own preconceptions and an occasional stereotype they read online? HN should be better than this.

Let's read the thread: "There has to be (or ought to be) a name for this kind of epistemological fallacy, where in pursuit of truth, the pursuit of logical sophistication and soundness between starting assumptions (or first principles) and conclusions becomes functionally way more important than carefully evaluating and thoughtfully choosing the right starting assumptions (and being willing to change them when they are found to be inconsistent with sound observation and interpretation)."

Can people suffer from that impairment? Is that possible? If not, please explain how wrong assumptions can be eliminated without actively looking for them. If the impairment is real, what would you call its victims? Pick your own terminology.

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