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Guess I'm a rationalist now

scottaaronson.blog

341–350 of 1001 posts

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#341
> A third reason I didn’t identify with the Rationalists was, frankly, that they gave off some (not all) of the vibes of a cult, with Eliezer as guru.

Apart from a charismatic leader, a cult (in the colloquial meaning) needs a business model, and very often, a sense of separation from, and lack of accountability to those who are outside the cult, which provides conveniently simpler environment under which the cults ideas operate. A sort of "complexity filter" at the entry gate.

I'm not sure how the Rationalists compare to those criteria, but I'd be curious to find out.

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#342
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a different definition of rationalism from what is used here.

It is. But the Rationalists, by taking that name as a label, are claiming that they are what the GP said. They want the prestige/respect/audience that the word gets, without actually being that.

(The rationalists never took that label, it is falsely applied to them. The project is called rationality, not rationalism. Unfortunately, this is now so pervasive that there's no fixing it.)

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think GP objects to the literalness, as much as to the "I am known for always being right and I acknowledge it", which comes off as.. not humble.

He is known for that, right or wrong.

I mean, Scott's been wrong on plenty of issues, but of course he is not wont to admit that on his own blog.

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#344
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do the post rats hang out these days? I got involved in the stoa during covid until the online community fragmented. Are there still events & hangouts?

Not "post rat", but r/SneerClub is good for criticisms of rationalists (some from former rationalists)

Their sneering is just that. Sneering, not interesting critiques.

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#345
post #217
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My main problem with the movement is their emphasis on Bayesianism in conjunction with an almost total neglect of Popperian epistemology. In my opinion, there can’t be a meaningful distinction made between rational and irrational without Popper. Popper injects an epistemic humility that Bayesianism, taken alone, can miss. I think that aligns well with your observation.

I actually think that their main problem is the belief that they can learn everything about the world by reading stuff on the Web. You can't understand everything by reading blogs and books, in the end, some things are best understood when you are on the ground. Unironically, they should go touch the grass. One example for all. It was claimed that a great rationalist policy is to distribute treated mosquito nets to 3…

> On the ground, the same nets were commonly used for fishing and other activities, polluting the environment with insecticides.

Could you recommend an article to learn more about this?

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#346
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What really confuses me is that many in this so called "rationalist" clique discuss Bayesianism as an "ism", some sort of sacred, revered truth. They talk about it in mystical terms, which matches the rest of their cult-like behavior. What's the deal with that?

That's specific to Yudkowsky, and I think that's just supposed to be humor. A lot of people find mathematics very dry. He likes to dress it up as "what if we pretend math is some secret revered knowledge?".

The best jokes all have a kernel of truth at their core, but I think a lot of Yudkowsky's acolytes missed the punch line.

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a valid point. But to some degree both can be true. I often felt when reading some of these type of texts: Wait a second, there is a wealth of thinking on these topics out there; You are not at all situating all your elaborate thinking in a broader context. And there absolutely is willingness to be challenged, and (maybe less so) a willingness to be wrong. But there also is an arrogance that "we are t…

That's a fair point. Speaking only for myself, I think I fail to understand why it's important to situate philosophical discussions in the context of all the previous philosophers who have expressed related ideas, rather than simply discussing the ideas in isolation. I remember as a child coming to the same "if reality is a deception, at least I must exist to be deceived" conclusion that Descartes did, well before I…

It may be easier to imagine someone trying to derive mathematics all by themselves, since it's less abstract. It's not that they won't come up with anything, it's that everything that even a genius can come up with in their lifetime will be something that the whole of humanity has long since come up with, chewed over, simplified, had a rebellion against, had a counter-rebellion against the rebellion, and ultimately packaged it up in a highly efficient manner into a textbook with cross-references to all sorts of angles on it and dozens of elaborations. You can't possible get through all this stuff all on your own.

The problem is less clear in philosophy than mathematics, but it's still there. It's really easy on your own terms to come up with some idea that the collective intelligence has already revealed to be fatally flawed in some undeniable manner, or at the very least, has very powerful arguments against it that an individual may never consider. The ideas that have survived decades, centuries, and even millenia against the collective weight of humanity assaulting them are going to have a certain character that "something someone came up with last week" will lack.

(That said I am quite heterodox in one way, which is that I'm not a big believer in reading primary sources, at least routinely. Personally I think that a lot of the primary sources noticeably lack the refinement and polish added as humanity chews it over and processes it and I prefer mostly pulling from the result of the process, and not from the one person who happened to introduce a particular idea. Such a source may be interesting for other reasons, but not in my opinion for philosophy.)

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They don't really ever show a sense of "hey, I've got a thought, maybe I haven't considered all angles to it, maybe I'm wrong - but here it is". Aren't these the people who started the trend of writing things like " epistemic status: mostly speculation " on their blog posts? And writing essays about the dangers of overconfidence? And measuring how often their predictions turn out wrong? And maintaining webpages tit…

I think this is a valid point. But to some degree both can be true. I often felt when reading some of these type of texts: Wait a second, there is a wealth of thinking on these topics out there; You are not at all situating all your elaborate thinking in a broader context. And there absolutely is willingness to be challenged, and (maybe less so) a willingness to be wrong. But there also is an arrogance that "we are t…

You're spot on here, and I think this is probably also why they appeal to programmers and people in software.

I find a lot of people in software have an insufferable tendency to simply ignore entire bodies of prior art, prior research, etc. outside of maybe computer science (and even that can be rare), and yet they act as though they are the most studied participants in the subject, proudly proclaiming their "genius insights" that are essentially restatements of basic facts in any given field that they would have learned if they just bothered to, you know, actually do research and put aside their egos for half a second to wonder if maybe the eons of human activity prior to their precious existence might have led to some decent knowledge.

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is. But the Rationalists, by taking that name as a label, are claiming that they are what the GP said. They want the prestige/respect/audience that the word gets, without actually being that.

(The rationalists never took that label, it is falsely applied to them. The project is called rationality, not rationalism. Unfortunately, this is now so pervasive that there's no fixing it.)

Hmm, interesting. Might I trouble you for your definitions of rationality and rationalism?

(Not a "gotcha". I really want to know.)

Re: Guess I'm a rationalist now

#350
post #154
post #24

> “You’re [X]?! The quantum physicist who’s always getting into arguments on the Internet, and who’s essentially always right, but who sustains an unreasonable amount of psychic damage in the process?” > “Yes,” I replied, not bothering to correct the “physicist” part. Didn't read much beyond that part. He'll fit right in with the rationalist crowd...

To be honest, if I encountered Scott Aaronson in the wild I would probably react the same way. The guy is super smart and thoughtful, and can write more coherently about quantum computing than anyone else I'm aware of.

if only he stayed silent on politics...
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