151–160 of 1001 posts
Never heard of the man, but that was a fun read. And it looks like a fun club to be part of. Until in becomes unbearable perhaps. Also raises the chances to get invited to birthday orgies..? Perhaps I should have stayed a in academia..
Until?
I've never thought ill of Scott Aaronson and have often admired him and his work when I stumble across it. However, reading this article about all these people at their "Galt's Gultch", I thought — "oh, I guess he's a rhinoceros now" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhinoceros_(play) Here's a bad joke for you all — What's the difference between a "rationalist" and "rationalizer"? Only the incentives.
I have always considered Scott Aaronson the least bad of the big-name rationalists. Which makes it slightly funny that he didn't realize he was one until Scott Siskind told him he was.
> “You’re [X]?! The quantum physicist who’s always getting into arguments on the Internet, and who’s essentially always right, but who sustains an unreasonable amount of psychic damage in the process?” > “Yes,” I replied, not bothering to correct the “physicist” part. Didn't read much beyond that part. He'll fit right in with the rationalist crowd...
Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've always seen the breathless Singularitarian worrying about AI Alignment as a smokescreen to distract people from thinking clearly about the more pedestrian hazards of AI that isn't self-improving or superhuman, from algorithmic bias, to policy-washing, to energy costs and acceleration of wealth concentration. It also leads to so-called longtermism - discounting the benefits of solving current real problems and fo…
yep, the biggest threat posed by AI comes from the capitalists who want to own it.
> “You’re [X]?! The quantum physicist who’s always getting into arguments on the Internet, and who’s essentially always right, but who sustains an unreasonable amount of psychic damage in the process?” > “Yes,” I replied, not bothering to correct the “physicist” part. Didn't read much beyond that part. He'll fit right in with the rationalist crowd...
The article made me think deeper about what rubs me the wrong way about the whole movement I think there is some inherent tension btwn being "rational" about things and trying to reason about things from first principle.. And the general absolutist tone of the community. The people involved all seem very... Full of themselves ? They don't really ever show a sense of "hey, I've got a thought, maybe I haven't considere…
My main problem with the movement is their emphasis on Bayesianism in conjunction with an almost total neglect of Popperian epistemology. In my opinion, there can’t be a meaningful distinction made between rational and irrational without Popper. Popper injects an epistemic humility that Bayesianism, taken alone, can miss. I think that aligns well with your observation.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
The rationalist discussions rarely consider what should be the baseline assumption of what if one or more of the logical assumptions or associations are wrong. They also tend to not systematically plan to validate. And in many domains - what could hold true for one moment can easily shift.
100% Rationalism is an ideal, yet those who label themselves as such do not realize their base of knowledge could be wrong. They lack an understanding of epistemology and it gives them confidence. I wonder if these 'rationalists' are all under age 40, they havent seen themselves fooled yet.
It has a priesthood that speaks for god (quantum). It has ideals passed down from on high. It has presuppositions about how the universe functions which must not be questioned. And it's filled with people happy that they are the chosen ones and they feel sorry for everyone that isn't enlightened like they are.
In the OPs article, I had to chuckle a little when they started the whole thing off by mentioning how other Rationalists recognized them as a physicist (they aren't). Then they proceeded to talk about "quantum cloning theory".
Therein is the problem. A bunch of people vociferously speaking outside their expertise confidently and being taken seriously by others.
The article made me think deeper about what rubs me the wrong way about the whole movement I think there is some inherent tension btwn being "rational" about things and trying to reason about things from first principle.. And the general absolutist tone of the community. The people involved all seem very... Full of themselves ? They don't really ever show a sense of "hey, I've got a thought, maybe I haven't considere…
In my view, rationalists are often "Bayesian" in that they are constantly looking for updates to their model. Consider that the default approach for most humans is to believe a variety of things and to feel indignant if someone holds differing views (the adage never discuss religion or politics). If one adopts the perspective that their own views might be wrong, one must find a balance between confidently acting on a belief and being open to the belief being overturned or debunked (by experience, by argument, etc.).
Most rationalists I've met enjoy the process of updating or discarding beliefs in favor of ones they consider more correct. But to be fair to one's own prior attempts at rationality, one should try reasonably hard to defend one's current beliefs so that they can be fully and soundly replaced if necessary, without leaving any doubt that they were insufficiently supported, etc.
To many people (the kind of people who never discuss religion or politics) all this is very uncomfortable and reveals that rationalists are egotistical and lacking in humility. Nothing could be further from the truth. It takes tremendous humility to assume that one's own beliefs are quite possibly wrong. The very name of Eliezer's blog "Less Wrong" makes this humility quite clear. Scott Alexander is also very open with his priors and known biases / foci, and I view his writing as primarily focusing on big picture epistemological patterns that most people end up overlooking because most people are busy, etc.
One final note about the AI-dystopianism common among rationalists -- we really don't know yet what the outcome will be. I personally am a big fan of AI, but we as humans do not remotely understand the social/linguistic/memetic environment well enough to know for sure how AI will impact our society and culture. My guess is that it will amplify rather than mitigate differences in innate intelligence in humans, but that's a tangent.
I think to some, the rationalist movement feels like historical "logical positivist" movements that were reductionist and socially darwinian. While it is obvious to me that the rationalist movement is nothing of the sort, some people view the word "rationalist" as itself full of the implication that self-proclaimed rationalists consider themselves superior at reasoning. In fact they simply employ a heuristic for considering their own rationality over time and attempting to maximize it -- this includes listening to "gut feelings" and hunches, etc,. in case you didn't realize.
The article made me think deeper about what rubs me the wrong way about the whole movement I think there is some inherent tension btwn being "rational" about things and trying to reason about things from first principle.. And the general absolutist tone of the community. The people involved all seem very... Full of themselves ? They don't really ever show a sense of "hey, I've got a thought, maybe I haven't considere…
Yeah the "rational" part always seemed a smokescreen for the ability to produce and ingest their own and their associates methane gases. I get it, I enjoyed being told I'm a super genius always right quantum physicist mathematician by the girls at Stanford too. But holy hell man, have some class, maybe consider there's more good to be done in rural Indiana getting some dirt under those nails..
In real life, the conversation too often ends up being, "This has to be wrong, and you're an obnoxious nerd for bothering me with it," versus, "You don't understand my argument, so I am smarter, and my conclusions are brilliantly subversive."