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Framework Laptop 12 review

arstechnica.com

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Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#81

Post by kokada »

dale_huevo wrote: post #35
criddell wrote: post #14

Is it unreasonable to think Framework should be able to make a laptop competitive with the 5 years old MacBook Air M1? I get that Framework focuses on making repairable machines, but does that prevent them from making a fanless, hi dpi, good performing, long battery life machine? I wouldn’t expect parity with an M4 machine, but it doesn’t seem unreasonable to think they should be competitive with the much older M1. I…

Yes. "Repairable" is a bit of a fool's errand. It really hinges on availability of spare parts, supply chain, etc. They will never sell enough of this niche product to nerds to make that a long-term reality. An old MBP is far more repairable because so many were made there will never be a shortage of parts on eBay. While an emphasis on repairability is noble, the false prophet of brick-like pluggable USB modules ain'…

If you go to the Framework website you can still find spare parts for their first gen laptops, because one thing they did is make sure that the latest gen parts are still compatible with their first gen.

Also, on a Mac if the memory or storage dies, you need to replace the whole motherboard, that isn't true in a Framework laptop. You can't even say that those parts will be difficult to get in the future because they're off the shelf parts.

I will not even start on the fact that replacing other parts that commonly break in a laptop like the screen or the keyboard are hard to do in a MacBook (needs to disassemble almost the whole laptop) vs doing it in Framework that is much easier and probably takes 20 minutes even without experience.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#82

Post by djaychela »

dale_huevo wrote: post #35
criddell wrote: post #14

Is it unreasonable to think Framework should be able to make a laptop competitive with the 5 years old MacBook Air M1? I get that Framework focuses on making repairable machines, but does that prevent them from making a fanless, hi dpi, good performing, long battery life machine? I wouldn’t expect parity with an M4 machine, but it doesn’t seem unreasonable to think they should be competitive with the much older M1. I…

Yes. "Repairable" is a bit of a fool's errand. It really hinges on availability of spare parts, supply chain, etc. They will never sell enough of this niche product to nerds to make that a long-term reality. An old MBP is far more repairable because so many were made there will never be a shortage of parts on eBay. While an emphasis on repairability is noble, the false prophet of brick-like pluggable USB modules ain'…

>"Repairable" is a bit of a fool's errand. It really hinges on availability of spare parts, supply chain, etc. They will never sell enough of this niche product to nerds to make that a long-term reality.

I don't think that's the case - there are plenty of people who realise that eWaste is a problem, and I've lost count of the number of times I've been asked why a laptop can't just have a "new CPU" fitted to speed it up when everything else works. In reality this means a new system board, but Framework does this.

>An old MBP is far more repairable because so many were made there will never be a shortage of parts on eBay.

That's not comparing like with like. I've done a -lot- of fixing of old (2012-era) macbooks and secondhand parts are always a crap shoot. Plus there are lots of minor changes between otherwise identical-looking parts which mean they don't fit (such as the higher-DPI screen connector between 2011 and 2012 for otherwise identical-looking parts which are indistinguishable until it doesn't quite fit.

>While an emphasis on repairability is noble, the false prophet of brick-like pluggable USB modules ain't it.

That's adaptability and means you can get the IO you need. The computer could be entirely non-repairable and have this, or it could be framework where everything is available brand new as a spare part if you need it.

>The newest Apple laptops all have easily replaceable ports that do not require replacing the logic board, so that novelty is even more useless.

I think you might be misinformed here. Lots of stuff is now serial locked and won't work even if you swap it over. And that's not counting some of the terrible low-level engineering stuff which people like Louis Rossman highlight (such as placement of higher-voltage lines right next to direct-to-cpu lines in display connectors). And I'm sure you know about the simple voltage controller that fails that Apple won't allow the original supplier to sell to anyone else.

Even replacing the battery in my 2022 MBP (which I'm using now and absolutely love) would be a trial compared to the framework. One of the USB ports has always been dicky and I've just left it as is precisely because this is a can of worms.

Watch some dosdude1 repair videos of examples of how much work and skill is needed to do something such as upgrade the storage in a MBP/Air. And compare this to the framework. They are several orders of magnitude different in terms of skill level.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#83

Post by presbyterian »

losvedir wrote: post #79

> modular, repairable, upgradeable laptops In terms of phones, I largely disagree with the conventional wisdom that repairable, upgradeable, Androids are better for the environment, more cost effective for the user, etc than iPhones. It's true you can't upgrade the battery yourself , but that's a different quality from whether the battery can be upgraded. And iPhones have a much higher resale value, so they're going…

I also feel like Android phones stop getting OS updates (including security fixes) much faster than iPhones. You can root them and install a newer version of Android, I guess, but the vast majority of people won't do that.

Also, I haven't been on Android in a few years, so maybe I'm wrong and this isn't a problem anymore, but it certainly was in the past.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#84

Post by [deleted] »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #75
perching_aix wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understanding finding it reasonable, it's just not getting at the heart of the problem. It also introduces an element of uncertainty: as you say, you can't specify a laptop screen's PPD since that's dependent on viewing distance. But that's exactly the problem: it's dependent on viewing distance. Some people hunch over and look at their laptops up close and personal, others have it on a stand at a reasonable he…

You could say it masks over the uncertainty in some ways, but it doesn't introduce that uncertainty. Asking for a laptop with 100PPD doesn't even make sense. > the 20/20 visual acuity threshold The acuity threshold for random blobs of light. The threshold for sharp edges is much finer, and the things we put on computer displays have a lot of sharp edges. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperacuity

[deleted]

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#85

Post by prophesi »

losvedir wrote: post #79

> modular, repairable, upgradeable laptops In terms of phones, I largely disagree with the conventional wisdom that repairable, upgradeable, Androids are better for the environment, more cost effective for the user, etc than iPhones. It's true you can't upgrade the battery yourself , but that's a different quality from whether the battery can be upgraded. And iPhones have a much higher resale value, so they're going…

It doesn't just mean self-repairable; you could still go in to a service center. It just wouldn't have to be an Apple approved one. And would be a lot cheaper due to the reduced costs of labor, and likely increase of third-party parts, particularly if they become modular / standardized. I had a friend who'd replace phone screens and batteries, but at some point it was no longer worth the hassle.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#86

Post by perching_aix »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #75
perching_aix wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understanding finding it reasonable, it's just not getting at the heart of the problem. It also introduces an element of uncertainty: as you say, you can't specify a laptop screen's PPD since that's dependent on viewing distance. But that's exactly the problem: it's dependent on viewing distance. Some people hunch over and look at their laptops up close and personal, others have it on a stand at a reasonable he…

You could say it masks over the uncertainty in some ways, but it doesn't introduce that uncertainty. Asking for a laptop with 100PPD doesn't even make sense. > the 20/20 visual acuity threshold The acuity threshold for random blobs of light. The threshold for sharp edges is much finer, and the things we put on computer displays have a lot of sharp edges. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperacuity

> Asking for a laptop with 100PPD doesn't even make sense.

Won't deny, since again, PPD depends on your field of view.

Yes, if you shop for "resolution and diagonal size", you may as well shop for PPI directly. This just doesn't generalize to displays overall (see my other comment with a TV example), as it's not actually the right variable. Wrong method, "right" result.

> The threshold for sharp edges is much finer, and the things we put on computer displays have a lot of sharp edges.

And the cell density is even finer. It was merely an example using a known reference value that lots of people would find excellent; I didn't mean to argue that it's the be-all end-all of vision. It's just 20/20.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#87

Post by TrainedMonkey »

losvedir wrote: post #79

> modular, repairable, upgradeable laptops In terms of phones, I largely disagree with the conventional wisdom that repairable, upgradeable, Androids are better for the environment, more cost effective for the user, etc than iPhones. It's true you can't upgrade the battery yourself , but that's a different quality from whether the battery can be upgraded. And iPhones have a much higher resale value, so they're going…

> It's true you can't upgrade the battery yourself, but that's a different quality from whether the battery can be upgraded.

And how many people end up upgrading the battery is yet another quality. I would suspect a small fraction of phones with upgradeable batteries actually gets battery upgrades. Having upgradeable internal components generally correlate strongly with recyclability... however once again, in my pessimistic estimation, only a small percentage of recycling actually amounts to anything.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#88

Post by staindk »

presbyterian wrote: post #83
losvedir wrote: post #79

> modular, repairable, upgradeable laptops In terms of phones, I largely disagree with the conventional wisdom that repairable, upgradeable, Androids are better for the environment, more cost effective for the user, etc than iPhones. It's true you can't upgrade the battery yourself , but that's a different quality from whether the battery can be upgraded. And iPhones have a much higher resale value, so they're going…

I also feel like Android phones stop getting OS updates (including security fixes) much faster than iPhones. You can root them and install a newer version of Android, I guess, but the vast majority of people won't do that. Also, I haven't been on Android in a few years, so maybe I'm wrong and this isn't a problem anymore, but it certainly was in the past.

A Lot of improvement has happened on Android regarding this. I think Samsungs have 6 or 7 years of guaranteed software updates, as do Pixel phones.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#89

Post by adolph »

coder543 wrote: post #54
hu3 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused. The article shows a few charts where a Framework laptop is faster than M4 Air both in single and multicore CPU benchmarks. Their office suite benchmarks puts it at almost 10 hour battery. See Framework 13 Ryzen AI 9 HX 370. To me, being able to run native Linux alone is worth its weight in gold, even if it was slower.

> The article shows a few charts where a Framework laptop is faster than M4 Air both in single and multicore CPU benchmarks. Every single chart in the article showed the M4 MacBook Air beating the Framework 12 by a large margin. I don't know what charts you were looking at.

I think the parent comment is referring to its parent's question "Is it unreasonable to think Framework should be able to make a laptop competitive with the 5 years old MacBook Air M1?"

That the Framework 12 is not extremely lagging behind the M4 (subjective comparison) might lead one to believe that it would be competitive with an five year old M1 Air. Taking a quick look at "Cinebench R23" from 2020 [0], Macbook Air M1 comes in at 1,520 and 7,804, which compares favorably to 2025's "Cinebench R23" in which the Framework 12's i5-1334U scores 1,474 and 4,644.

The answer is it isn't competitive performance-wise. Given the M1 seems to have some native Linux support through Ashai, the Framework's advantages over the 5 year old MBA M1 seem to be user accessible hardware changes, touchscreen and longer hinge throw.

0. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/11/hands-on-with-the-ap...

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#90

Post by [deleted] »

losvedir wrote: post #79

> modular, repairable, upgradeable laptops In terms of phones, I largely disagree with the conventional wisdom that repairable, upgradeable, Androids are better for the environment, more cost effective for the user, etc than iPhones. It's true you can't upgrade the battery yourself , but that's a different quality from whether the battery can be upgraded. And iPhones have a much higher resale value, so they're going…

[deleted]
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