Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Framework Laptop 12 review

arstechnica.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 398 posts

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#61

Post by renewiltord »

hu3 wrote: post #24
criddell wrote: post #14

Is it unreasonable to think Framework should be able to make a laptop competitive with the 5 years old MacBook Air M1? I get that Framework focuses on making repairable machines, but does that prevent them from making a fanless, hi dpi, good performing, long battery life machine? I wouldn’t expect parity with an M4 machine, but it doesn’t seem unreasonable to think they should be competitive with the much older M1. I…

I'm confused. The article shows a few charts where a Framework laptop is faster than M4 Air both in single and multicore CPU benchmarks. Their office suite benchmarks puts it at almost 10 hour battery. See Framework 13 Ryzen AI 9 HX 370. To me, being able to run native Linux alone is worth its weight in gold, even if it was slower.

This is why humans can't be trusted to read article. Often they produce hallucinations. Use LLM. Much more reliable.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#62

Post by criddell »

mhitza wrote: post #22
criddell wrote: post #14

Is it unreasonable to think Framework should be able to make a laptop competitive with the 5 years old MacBook Air M1? I get that Framework focuses on making repairable machines, but does that prevent them from making a fanless, hi dpi, good performing, long battery life machine? I wouldn’t expect parity with an M4 machine, but it doesn’t seem unreasonable to think they should be competitive with the much older M1. I…

> Is it unreasonable to think Framework should be able to make a laptop competitive with the 5 years old MacBook Air M1? Kind of unreasonable. I mean which Intel or AMD cpu can be run fanless and perform well? On the topic of displays, my understanding is that they "kind of use what they can get". That's how there can be a 13 display with rounded corners in a straight edge case. What you're asking are the things I'm…

> I mean which Intel or AMD cpu can be run fanless and perform well?

I don't follow CPU news and have no idea what lake they're at now, but I'd be surprised if Intel and AMD didn't have a chip competitive with an M1 by now.

When I google "fanless amd intel laptop cpu" I find this old thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31142209 which does suggest some fanless machines exist. That's from 3 years ago so surely there are even more options today, no?

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#63

Post by cosmic_cheese »

chrismorgan wrote: post #38
perching_aix wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but does that prevent them from making a (...) hi dpi (...) machine? It pretty much has that though? 1920x1200 at 12.2" is 185.59 PPI. Standard DPI (PPI) is 96. HiDPI to my knowledge isn't properly defined, but the usual convention is either double that or just more than that - the latter criteria this display definitely clears, and the former (192 PPI) is super super close, to the extent that I'd call it cleared f…

The baseline of 96ppi is nominal only. Form factor and intended distance from screen matters a lot. In the laptop form factor, you’re aiming for more like 110–125 as 1×. Apple laptops range from 221–254ppi as 2×. 186ppi is designed for 1.5×, an uncomfortable space that makes perfection difficult-to-impossible, yet seems to have become unreasonably popular, given how poorly everything but Windows tends to handle it. (…

Yeah the focus really should be on multipliers. Is it a clean multiple of the typical “normal” DPI resolution for that screen size? You’ve got a great screen. No? It’s a compromise. Simple.

1.5x looks ok mostly (though fractional pixels can cause issues in a few circumstances), but across platforms nothing is handled as well as 2x, 3x, etc is. I have a 1.5x laptop and wish it were either 1x or 2x.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#64

Post by femiagbabiaka »

hu3 wrote: post #49
femiagbabiaka wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't describe the full specs of their test rigs (that I saw) but a similarly spec'd Macbook Air is going to get better battery life than the equivalent Framework 12 or 13 based on the 10 hours they quoted for the 12. (The 13 gets even less). And saying that the best possible CPU framework offers in a 13 inch format beats the consumer line of Macbooks.. sometimes.. you would really need to like/need Linux. At w…

Why would I get Air M4 if I want to use Linux?

There are many different methods through which one can develop against/on Linux. For example, I have a pretty low spec'd Macbook Air and several different test machines at home that I do remote development against. I prefer a low-heat, high battery life, good performing machine like the Air over a power hungry, loud, and constantly overheating workstation. But, those are my preferences -- some people want to have a single interface through which they do all their work, and the most powerful Linux laptop money can buy. If that's the case, Framework is great!

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#65

Post by Dylan16807 »

perching_aix wrote: post #41
chrismorgan wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The baseline of 96ppi is nominal only. Form factor and intended distance from screen matters a lot. In the laptop form factor, you’re aiming for more like 110–125 as 1×. Apple laptops range from 221–254ppi as 2×. 186ppi is designed for 1.5×, an uncomfortable space that makes perfection difficult-to-impossible, yet seems to have become unreasonably popular, given how poorly everything but Windows tends to handle it. (…

There's PPI and then there's PPD. If they want more PPD (which is what's field of view and thus viewing distance and display size dependent), that's fine, but then it's not PPI they should be complaining about. This might sound like a nitpick but I really don't mean it to be. These are proper well defined concepts and terms, so let's use them.

But nobody knows what baseline PPD is (47) and you can't actually specify a laptop screen in PPD, you can only specify it in PPI. So I think it's reasonable and maybe even preferable to use PPI here.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#66

Post by criddell »

encom wrote: post #60
dale_huevo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. "Repairable" is a bit of a fool's errand. It really hinges on availability of spare parts, supply chain, etc. They will never sell enough of this niche product to nerds to make that a long-term reality. An old MBP is far more repairable because so many were made there will never be a shortage of parts on eBay. While an emphasis on repairability is noble, the false prophet of brick-like pluggable USB modules ain'…

FrameWork is not openly hostile towards right-to-repair, and do not actively sabotage repair efforts. Try calling Apple and ask for spare parts or circuit diagrams. Anything you find is either leaked, cloned/copied or trash-picked. It barely qualifies as spare parts.

They don't have circuit diagrams, but they do sell some replacement parts and do have repair manuals online that are geared towards supported repairs.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/122003

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#67

Post by throw0101d »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #26
daft_pink wrote: post #11

it’s really hard not to just buy a MacBook Air at this price level.

Linux support

Depending on the features you need, you can probably pick up an M1/M2 for a decent price nowadays that could work well enough:

* https://asahilinux.org/docs/platform/feature-support/overvie...

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#68

Post by blacksmith_tb »

kesslern wrote: post #4
dima55 wrote: post #2

Is there a single person in the world that LIKES the half-height up/down keys?

I do, but they should be paired with half height Page Up and Page Down keys. It's weird with the left/right keys as full size.

Ah, so in two rows pg up, up arrow, pg down left arrow, down arrow, right arrow I do like that layout, I have an old Dell Precision like that (though even its small keycaps are pretty big). My Framework 13 has the funny full-size left and right on either side of half-height up/down, which is kind of annoying, but you can get used to it, mostly.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#69

Post by perching_aix »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #65
perching_aix wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's PPI and then there's PPD. If they want more PPD (which is what's field of view and thus viewing distance and display size dependent), that's fine, but then it's not PPI they should be complaining about. This might sound like a nitpick but I really don't mean it to be. These are proper well defined concepts and terms, so let's use them.

But nobody knows what baseline PPD is (47) and you can't actually specify a laptop screen in PPD, you can only specify it in PPI. So I think it's reasonable and maybe even preferable to use PPI here.

I can understanding finding it reasonable, it's just not getting at the heart of the problem.

It also introduces an element of uncertainty: as you say, you can't specify a laptop screen's PPD since that's dependent on viewing distance. But that's exactly the problem: it's dependent on viewing distance. Some people hunch over and look at their laptops up close and personal, others have it on a stand at a reasonable height and distance. To use PPI is to intentionally mask over this uncertainty, and start using ballpark measures people may or may not agree with without knowing.

To put it in context, for this display, "Retina resolution" (60 PPD), i.e. the 20/20 visual acuity threshold, is passed when viewed from 47.09 cm (18.54 inches, so basically a feet and a half). I don't know about you, but I think this is a very reasonable distance to view your laptop from, even if it's just 12.2" in diagonal. It corresponds to a horizontal field of view of 32°.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#70

Post by Gracana »

chrismorgan wrote: post #38
perching_aix wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but does that prevent them from making a (...) hi dpi (...) machine? It pretty much has that though? 1920x1200 at 12.2" is 185.59 PPI. Standard DPI (PPI) is 96. HiDPI to my knowledge isn't properly defined, but the usual convention is either double that or just more than that - the latter criteria this display definitely clears, and the former (192 PPI) is super super close, to the extent that I'd call it cleared f…

The baseline of 96ppi is nominal only. Form factor and intended distance from screen matters a lot. In the laptop form factor, you’re aiming for more like 110–125 as 1×. Apple laptops range from 221–254ppi as 2×. 186ppi is designed for 1.5×, an uncomfortable space that makes perfection difficult-to-impossible, yet seems to have become unreasonably popular, given how poorly everything but Windows tends to handle it. (…

Windows' "real fractional scaling" gives me clipped window borders, maximized windows bleeding onto other screens, and fuzzy-looking applications. I'm curious if Apple's downsampling method works better, because I am not impressed with Microsoft's method.
Post reply on HN