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Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

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Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#111

Post by lelanthran »

c-hendricks wrote: post #88
lelanthran wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you don't bother about any app being able to spoof on your pressed keys: go, use Xorg. The correct response to "All applications can spoof keypresses or act as a keylogger" is "Okay, force user to grant permission before an application does this". The Wayland response is "No application should be allowed to do this". Whether you like it or not, sometimes users actually want functionality that you deem is insecur…

How would that experience work on X? Wouldn't any app that accepts keyboard input throw up your suggested permission granting interface? That's pretty much all apps. Also it's not like global hotkeys don't exist in Wayland.

> How would that experience work on X? Wouldn't any app that accepts keyboard input throw up your suggested permission granting interface? That's pretty much all apps.

That's the point - applications that need to perform malicious looking (but not actually) activity like intercepting or injecting keyboard inputs already work on X! What we are talking about is them not working on Wayland!

> Also it's not like global hotkeys don't exist in Wayland.

There are more features than simply mapping hotkeys, remapping keyboards, etc which already work on consumer computers, such as Windows, MacOS and X. What we are asking for when we complain about Wayland is the same functionality that already exists on Windows, MacOS and X.

Whether the Waylan devs think that the requests are unreasonable or not is, frankly, irrelevant. When everyone but Wayland supports something, the Wayland developers have to justify their decision to go against the norm.

The people asking for the norm typically don't need to justify why they want the norm.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#112

Post by em-bee »

eadmund wrote: post #107
palata wrote: post #52

I don't get the Xorg vs Wayland fight. Feels like it mostly coming from people who don't contribute to either of them. If you like Xorg, use Xorg. If you like Wayland, use Wayland. If you're not happy about an issue, contribute to it.

That doesn’t really work. If there’s no longer a browser which supports X11, then I have to choose between browsing the web and having a usable desktop. The problem is that the Wayland folks are trying to replace X11 rather than provide an easy upgrade path. They simply don’t care about anyone who uses a computer in any way outside of the ways they can be bothered to support. ‘It’s better!’ they cry, despite users te…

they are providing an upgrade path: XWayland. i have yet to come across an X11 application that does not run despite using wayland.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#113

Post by em-bee »

bsder wrote: post #106
palata wrote: post #52

I don't get the Xorg vs Wayland fight. Feels like it mostly coming from people who don't contribute to either of them. If you like Xorg, use Xorg. If you like Wayland, use Wayland. If you're not happy about an issue, contribute to it.

> If you like Xorg, use Xorg. If you like Wayland, use Wayland. If you're not happy about an issue, contribute to it. The problem is that RedHat nee IBM are attempting to force everybody onto Wayland by dropping X11 support. They already tried once and the outcry was so huge that they had to back off saying they would try again next version. This is kind of a rock and a hard place. The Wayland developers don't want t…

Wayland predates Vulkan

and how is that waylands fault? what if vulkan gets replaced? should a new replacement be written from scratch every time that happens?

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#114

Post by const_cast »

63 wrote: post #55

I'll throw my hat in the anti-Wayland ring. I have a 5-year-old graphics card from the most popular graphics card company in the world. And yet, in 2025, I cannot run Sway/Wayland on my Nvidia 3070 for more than 20 minutes without a crash. i3/Xorg works fine. Wayland just straight doesn't work and the push to move everyone to it looks ridiculous from my perspective.

I know this conversation keeps coming up again and again, but this is firmly nvidia's issue. Nvidia has been antagonistic to the Linux desktop for forever.

Before Wayland, it was not sunshine and rainbows. For a long time, a lot of shit just did not work and there was no way to make it work. Nvidia did not care. It took Linux Trovalds shitting on Nvidia to make them care a little. It took YEARS for Nvidia on the Linux desktop to be decent.

And, to this day, a lot of Nvidia features just do not work, even on X. You get a MUCH better experience on Windows.

Wayland cannot see the Nvidia source code because nobody can. They're trying their best, but they're not going to regress to old ass versions of stuff to get it to work and they're not gonna throw spaghetti at the wall. Nvidia needs to step up because they decided they're the only ones who can develop the driver. There's nothing anyone can do.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#116

Post by msgodel »

exiguus wrote: post #98

I understand that change can be challenging, but actively seeking reasons to avoid change is another matter entirely. The criticism of Wayland in this article seems unfounded. Transitioning to new tools can resolve many issues. You have a choice: acknowledge that Wayland is faster, more user-friendly, and more secure, or remain tied to technologies from the 1990s. Since Ubuntu has adopted Wayland exclusively for its…

The problem is it is not in fact faster and more user friendly. Maybe it works ok with your set up but that doesn't change reality and all the attempted gas lighting from devs and fans does is tick off the portion of the community that has legitimate problems with it.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#117

Post by soraminazuki »

Lariscus wrote: post #36

[flagged]

> The main dev, apart from being a reactionary nutjob

This is honestly an understatement. Posting antivax conspiracy theories on LKML? Reactionary. Writing anti-DEI rants in his REAMDE and COC files? Reactionary. But this long-winded rant [1] defending WW2 Germany? "Reactionary" doesn't even begin to describe it.

Whatever one's opinion on Wayland, his conduct [2] should be a huge red flag to anyone using his software.

[1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20190404153507/https://lists.dyn...

[2]: https://lkml.org/lkml/2024/10/24/1249

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#118

Post by hokumguru »

eadmund wrote: post #107
palata wrote: post #52

I don't get the Xorg vs Wayland fight. Feels like it mostly coming from people who don't contribute to either of them. If you like Xorg, use Xorg. If you like Wayland, use Wayland. If you're not happy about an issue, contribute to it.

That doesn’t really work. If there’s no longer a browser which supports X11, then I have to choose between browsing the web and having a usable desktop. The problem is that the Wayland folks are trying to replace X11 rather than provide an easy upgrade path. They simply don’t care about anyone who uses a computer in any way outside of the ways they can be bothered to support. ‘It’s better!’ they cry, despite users te…

At some point though shouldn’t we just push a new standard in order to increase adoption (and thus support/stability)? Thinking heavily of Apple and USB C.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#119

Post by throwaway63097 »

soraminazuki wrote: post #117
Lariscus wrote: post #36

[flagged]

> The main dev, apart from being a reactionary nutjob This is honestly an understatement. Posting antivax conspiracy theories on LKML? Reactionary. Writing anti-DEI rants in his REAMDE and COC files? Reactionary. But this long-winded rant [1] defending WW2 Germany? "Reactionary" doesn't even begin to describe it. Whatever one's opinion on Wayland, his conduct [2] should be a huge red flag to anyone using his software…

Do you hold the same views that you used to hold six years ago?

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#120

Post by throwaway63097 »

jauntywundrkind wrote: post #103
63 wrote: post #55

I'll throw my hat in the anti-Wayland ring. I have a 5-year-old graphics card from the most popular graphics card company in the world. And yet, in 2025, I cannot run Sway/Wayland on my Nvidia 3070 for more than 20 minutes without a crash. i3/Xorg works fine. Wayland just straight doesn't work and the push to move everyone to it looks ridiculous from my perspective.

AMD has great open source drivers that work wonderfully everywhere. Even their old hardware keeps getting amazing upgrades & enhancements, a decade+ latter! Word on the street is Nvidia is doing a much much better job, for a year or so now. But, like, you are using a GPU that sway used to make you type "--i-wont-buy-an-nvidia-gpu-again" and now makes you type --unsupported-gpu to use. It's not Wayland's fault if your…

> Wayland does way way way less special magic & is way more straightforward with how it handles the display subsystem than X, which half ignores the kernel & has its own absurd driver subsystems and mountains of jank overlapping extensions to do what kernels and GPUs just do these days.

Users don't care about your beautiful code and architecture if your product doesn't even work. Making excuses doesn't help anyone - if X can work fine with Nvidia drivers, Wayland's failure to do so is a problem with Wayland.

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