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Social anxiety disorder-associated gut microbiota increases social fear

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Re: Social anxiety disorder-associated gut microbiota increases social fear

#61

Offtopic but can we please stop and appreciate the excellent acronym "SAD"? It's gotta be right up there with hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia in the gallery of best disease names.

It also stands for Standard American Diet. So there you go.

It also stands for Seasonal Affective Disorder which is winter depression.

Re: Social anxiety disorder-associated gut microbiota increases social fear

#62
post #18
post #16

I think it makes sense that our microbiome should be able to trigger such a response. If your microbiome is changing, it means that some microbe is gaining numbers it didn't previously have, and your current bodily functions, such as your immune system, aren't stopping it. That doesn't necessarily mean your immune system is compromised, but if it is then it would probably be good not to spend a lot of time around oth…

Beneficial for the group, not the individual, I suppose.

Which is to say, maladaptive. Despite all the people wishing evolution worked at the group level, it doesn't. Groups don't have offspring, individuals do, and thus things that are bad for the individual are extinguished regardless of their effect on the group.

If you look closely enough, even individuals aren't the true units of evolution, for the same reason; competing alleles is where the real action is.

Re: Social anxiety disorder-associated gut microbiota increases social fear

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had a LOT of gut problems in my life. I have a physically broken stomach, have had to have stomach surgery in the past, and probably will have to do it again soon. Most probiotics I've taken did nothing. The only ones that seem to actually work for me are these: https://drohhiraprobiotics.com/ Not sure why it works, but anecdotally, they do. Other things that have helped significantly – cutting out alcohol.

Fermented foods are way more helpful IME. I've even found kombucha protective against mildly spoiled food. I can also attest to having my first alcoholic drink in a while and it screwing me up for a week.

I've always been skeptical of probiotic supplements in general mostly because they are stored/shipped in unrefrigerated environments. I believe in most cases the bacteria would end up dead before you even ingested it. However, some companies have developed strains that can withstand some amount of heat. But you never know where they've been stored/for how long/etc.

I remember speaking to someone who had the suggestion to try fermenting food with probiotic supplements, as that would be the only realistic way to know if they were still alive.

There are vendors that do sell probiotic supplements that come shipped in dry ice that people with Crohn's disease & other GI ailments. I don't remember the name of the company that sold them though.

But, I agree that yogurt or saurkraut/kimchi and other fermented products would be a good way to get some gut bacteria. Those would be great to use after you came off antibiotics, but it wouldn't necessarily help with genital mental health/anxiety (as far as I'm aware).

Interestingly, yeast has neurotransmitters and neurotransmitter precursors in it such as tryptophan and serotonin. [1]

Having said all that, I decided to look up the "mood enhancing" probiotic strains I've seen being sold in OTC supplements. The two strains I see are Lactobacillus helveticus Rosell-52 and Bifidobacterium longum Rosell-175 (there may be others I'm unaware of). The studies are quite small, unfortunately. (I didn't read all of them though) [2] [3] [4] [5].

Finally, this is quite a unique term I haven't come across: Psychobiotics!

Psychobiotics are probiotics that have the characteristics of modulating central nervous system (CNS) functions or reconciled actions by the gut–brain axis (GBA) through neural, humoral and metabolic pathways to improve gastrointestinal activity as well as anxiolytic and even antidepressant abilities. [6]

[1] Melatonin and Other Tryptophan Metabolites Produced by Yeasts: Implications in Cardiovascular and Neurodegenerative Diseases https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4718080/

[2] Assessment of psychotropic-like properties of a probiotic formulation (Lactobacillus helveticus R0052 and Bifidobacterium longum R0175) in rats and human subjects https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20974015/

[3] Probiotics Promising for Mild to Moderate Depression https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/881877

[4] The effect of Lactobacillus helveticus fermented milk on sleep and health perception in elderly subjects https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17851460/

[5] One Giant Leap from Mouse to Man: The Microbiota–Gut–Brain Axis in Mood Disorders and Translational Challenges Moving towards Human Clinical Trials https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8840472/

[6] Exploring the Potential of Lactobacillus helveticus R0052 and Bifidobacterium longum R0175 as Promising Psychobiotics Using SHIME https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10056475/

Re: Social anxiety disorder-associated gut microbiota increases social fear

#64
post #30
post #19

I've seen probiotic supplements that have strains that claim to help with anxiety and depression, but I've never really looked into them because I'm quite skeptical they do anything. But if anyone is familiar with them and has any feedback I'd be interested to hear it.

Whether or not the effect in the paper turns out to be true and reproducible, the supplements you've seen almost certainly don't do anything unless you're wiping out your established gut microbiota with antibiotics first. Your existing microbiota are entrenched and in a very good position to defend themselves from any weakened intruders you might intentionally introduce. Meanwhile, supplement companies really like to…

I posted some links to papers I came across here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44284165

It's a very fair and valid question as to whether a probiotic supplement:

A) Survives being packaged and stored in a warehouse for an indeterminate amount of time B) Being shipped in the back of a truck/airplane C) If the bacteria is still alive whether it can make it through the GI tract to even have any effect whatsoever

I don't know whether this has been studied. I know Consumer Labs does yearly tests on various supplements, probiotics included, but it's a subscription service and you need to subscribe to see the results. I have subscribed to them in the past and found their testing and articles quite helpful. I

In their tests, ConsumerLab found that the number of viable cells in probiotic products ranged from 1 million to 225 billion per recommended serving.

Additionally, some products were contaminated with harmful bacteria, such as Pseudomonas aeruginosa, which poses a risk to immunocompromised individuals and infants.

The company also noted that the enteric coating of some products did not function properly, potentially affecting the delivery of the probiotics to the gut. (Brave AI Search summary of the article below) [1]

ConsumerLab Tests Reveal Best Probiotic Supplements and Those With Quality Issues https://www.consumerlab.com/news/best-probiotic-supplements/...

Re: Social anxiety disorder-associated gut microbiota increases social fear

#65
post #40

I know from personal experience that eating sugar does induce more anxiety in me. This might sound weird but I can "physically feel" in my head a certain anxiety when e.g. I think about something awkward. This "physical feel" stopped being there when I stopped eating sweets for a few weeks. One reason why I try to keep my sugar intake down (the other being in danger of getting diabetes...). Thus, I wholly believe thi…

You say sugar, but are you referring to glucose or fructose? There is a meaningful amount of scientific literature connecting fructose and inflammation. The AVERAGE human can only digest about 30g of fructose a day. Some substantially more, some substantially less. A can of soda or three apples is about 30g of fructose. Inflammation (high- and low grade)then being a second step linking to anxiety.

I am talking about the sugar in sweets. My daily apple does not appear to heighten my anxiety.

Re: Social anxiety disorder-associated gut microbiota increases social fear

#66
post #40

I know from personal experience that eating sugar does induce more anxiety in me. This might sound weird but I can "physically feel" in my head a certain anxiety when e.g. I think about something awkward. This "physical feel" stopped being there when I stopped eating sweets for a few weeks. One reason why I try to keep my sugar intake down (the other being in danger of getting diabetes...). Thus, I wholly believe thi…

Heads up, I don’t think there’s a link between eating sugar and risk of developing diabetes. Obesity is a risk factor but not sugar itself.

Maybe. But eating sweets makes me eat more anyway. Which leads to me gaining weight. So it's the same anyhow.

Re: Social anxiety disorder-associated gut microbiota increases social fear

#67
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say sugar, but are you referring to glucose or fructose? There is a meaningful amount of scientific literature connecting fructose and inflammation. The AVERAGE human can only digest about 30g of fructose a day. Some substantially more, some substantially less. A can of soda or three apples is about 30g of fructose. Inflammation (high- and low grade)then being a second step linking to anxiety.

I am talking about the sugar in sweets. My daily apple does not appear to heighten my anxiety.

I have heard people say that eating fibers together with fructose(like when eating a apple) reduces the impact of fructose, as fibers create a lining on the gut wall reducing the absorption rate.

Sounds reasonable. But i have had a hard time finding evidence verifying that hypotesis.

Re: Social anxiety disorder-associated gut microbiota increases social fear

#68
post #62
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beneficial for the group, not the individual, I suppose.

Which is to say, maladaptive. Despite all the people wishing evolution worked at the group level, it doesn't. Groups don't have offspring, individuals do, and thus things that are bad for the individual are extinguished regardless of their effect on the group. If you look closely enough, even individuals aren't the true units of evolution, for the same reason; competing alleles is where the real action is.

Alleles are shared with kin which gives rise to multilevel selection effects in rare but real scenarios.

Re: Social anxiety disorder-associated gut microbiota increases social fear

#69
post #40

I know from personal experience that eating sugar does induce more anxiety in me. This might sound weird but I can "physically feel" in my head a certain anxiety when e.g. I think about something awkward. This "physical feel" stopped being there when I stopped eating sweets for a few weeks. One reason why I try to keep my sugar intake down (the other being in danger of getting diabetes...). Thus, I wholly believe thi…

I recently started consuming relatively large amounts of fiber (standard daily dose of whole psyllium husks mixed with water) and I feel noticeably less anxious than on days when I don't take it. Fiber has been shown to interact somehow (I'm not super familiar) with the body's insulin levels. I wonder if it is related to what TFA is saying.

Re: Social anxiety disorder-associated gut microbiota increases social fear

#70
post #21

I’m writing the following in jest, before anyone takes this seriously, as I assume this kind of correlation has been accounted for. Maybe the causation is reversed: people who go out more are more frequently infected with all kinds of bugs, from getting too intimate with strangers to eating stuff that was prepared by someone not too assiduous in their hand washing - a sibling reply mentioning fecal microbiota transpl…

It's an interesting theory! Maybe find some extroverts and share meals with them & do some consensual saliva exchange with them and pick up their healthy bacteria! :)
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