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US-backed Israeli company's spyware used to target European journalists

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Re: US-backed Israeli company's spyware used to target European journalists

#231

Post by whodidntante »

DSingularity wrote: post #184
ipaddr wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You realize that US removed the democratically elected government in 1953 in CIA-led coup that overthrew the democratically elected Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh. Then the US government kept the Shah in power. He repressed the population and led to the 1979 revolution. Who's the one evil again? Those countries in the middle east that US considers an ally are not democratically elected either and they enforce reli…

Unfortunately I don’t think he is capable of what you are asking him to do. Remember that the majority of the Israeli population think Israel hasnt gone far enough in Gaza. Yes that’s after starvation and murdering over 30k women and children. On top of that most Israelis see no problem with the Nakba which is the origin of the problem as it displaced the majority of Palestinians turning them into scattered refugees…

"... the Nakba which is the origin of the problem as it displaced the majority of Palestinians turning them into scattered refugees who were robbed of their land and property."

The origin of "the problem" is 1920/1924 when 1200 years of Islamic rule ended in that area, and non-muslims no longer lived under apartheid. With the old oppressive laws rescinded, and no able to enforce peace, a violent mess ensued, with both sides killing each other and the British, until some of the land was divided by the UN in 1947 into two nations, one Jewish and one Arab. Israel took that opportunity to declare their independence.

It was only then that the entire Arab world waged war on on Israel, and the result of that war was the "Nabka", or in other words, the Arabs who declared the war lost.

Keep in mind that far more Jews were "displaced" from the surrounding countries, and were robbed of their land and property.

It is the mindset, created through 1200 years of history, that non-muslims are lesser people and do not deserve self-determination that does not allow peace in that area.

Re: US-backed Israeli company's spyware used to target European journalists

#232

Post by defrost »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #212
keybored wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, and the parent's answer to this was "allies of Western governments are also morally inferior". But I never said that allies of Western governments should have cyber weapons, nor did I make any claims on their moral status. Hence parent's comment not addressing anything I said. First they said that the West did a coup against the Iranian government. Hence according to them they are not morally superior (or rath…

A datapoint does not prove the point though.

Iran is far from the only country undermined by covert US interference and there are many US trading partners and allies that are morally and ethically challenged.

This is an area that lacks a clear unique singular datapoint, more a landscape of multiple rounds of buckshot.

Re: US-backed Israeli company's spyware used to target European journalists

#233

Post by zelphirkalt »

gtsop wrote: post #194
zelphirkalt wrote: post #176

[flagged]

I lol when I see such comments downvoted. I'd love to see some written rationale for the downvote.

Not really a rationale, but many people go like this:

(1) Israel with US, so against Israeli military = against US = you bad!

(2) Israel = Jewish, so if you against Israel then you = anti-semite! = you bad!

(3) Oh, you positive about enemy of Israel, so you against Israel, so you bad!

All of which are, of course, utter nonsense. And of course it cannot be said in a public forum, without people becoming fearful, because the truth has been said. Cannot possibly discuss this! And in case you do manage to state it somewhere, Bots might flag or downvote you into oblivion. That, or people with no clue what's going on in the world and weird misplaced feelings of allegiance.

Re: US-backed Israeli company's spyware used to target European journalists

#234

Post by lurk2 »

School-Cotton wrote: post #152
lurk2 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But that does not necessarily mean she is herself a fascist, but rather that she was a member of various organizations that were originally founded by fascists then later moderated (roughly similar to the French FN/RN). Inane.

Why?

I’m all for giving people the benefit of the doubt but at some point you have to call a spade a spade.

Re: US-backed Israeli company's spyware used to target European journalists

#235

Post by ty6853 »

whodidntante wrote: post #231
DSingularity wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately I don’t think he is capable of what you are asking him to do. Remember that the majority of the Israeli population think Israel hasnt gone far enough in Gaza. Yes that’s after starvation and murdering over 30k women and children. On top of that most Israelis see no problem with the Nakba which is the origin of the problem as it displaced the majority of Palestinians turning them into scattered refugees…

"... the Nakba which is the origin of the problem as it displaced the majority of Palestinians turning them into scattered refugees who were robbed of their land and property." The origin of "the problem" is 1920/1924 when 1200 years of Islamic rule ended in that area, and non-muslims no longer lived under apartheid. With the old oppressive laws rescinded, and no able to enforce peace, a violent mess ensued, with bot…

>The origin of "the problem" is 1920/1924 when 1200 years of Islamic rule ended in that area, and non-muslims no longer lived under apartheid

The missing piece here is that happened because of the European support and implementation of Jewish settlement.

The zionists had actually initially considered Argentina, which had constitutional provisions that would have lended well to establishing a Jewish community there, peacefully. Instead they chose the more violent approach in the middle east.

If the Arabs had pushed back harder initially, the Zionists would have quickly just went to their alternative. This accident of history ended up being the difference between the ongoing bloodfued we see now and the much happier alternative.

Re: US-backed Israeli company's spyware used to target European journalists

#236

Post by ty6853 »

NickC25 wrote: post #228
ty6853 wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't wish to kill off anyone, because I think individual rights trump peace. Based on the population over/under killing off all of Gaza seems to be the most peaceful solution. Israel would work but it has a bigger population, and only one side or the other would have to be eliminated to achieve gaza-israel peace in that conflict. Of course we don't have any real say in the matter. They're being starved to death as…

>Based on the population over/under killing off all of Gaza seems to be the most peaceful solution. That's some of the most degenerate, nihilistic, disgusting, inhumane rhetoric I've ever seen. Ethnic cleansing and genocide is "the most peaceful solution"? What the fuck? >once they all perish I don't think they'll be able to defend themselves or engage in hostilities. No shit they won't be able to engage or defend th…

I mean, this is why I am not an advocate for peace. Peace is often degenerate, nihilistic, genocidal, disgusting, inhumane.

Re: US-backed Israeli company's spyware used to target European journalists

#237

Post by heylook »

edanm wrote: post #112
DSingularity wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An incredible self awareness for you to write “There's also nothing inherently wrong with selling intelligence tools to a western government, Italy is not Iran or Zambia”. I wonder how Iran or Zambia feel about the west? The overthrow of their democracy. The colonial exploitations. Are those legit grievances in your eyes? Or are you a “take up the white mans burden” kind of person?

If you're claiming that Iran's government is somehow morally equivalent to Italy's, you're massively wrong. It's not about "the white mans burden", whatever that means. It's about Iran's government not being democratically elected, being massively unpopular with its own populace that can't do anything about it cause it's not a democracy, enforcing religious laws on people that often don't want them, not respecting mi…

> It's not about "the white mans burden", whatever that means.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man%27s_Burden

I'm not reading the arguments closely enough to make a judgement, but the reference is to an imagined moral imperative to spread "civilization" and whatnot to "lesser" cultures and peoples. We covered it in high school where I grew up.

Re: US-backed Israeli company's spyware used to target European journalists

#238

Post by whodidntante »

ty6853 wrote: post #235
whodidntante wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"... the Nakba which is the origin of the problem as it displaced the majority of Palestinians turning them into scattered refugees who were robbed of their land and property." The origin of "the problem" is 1920/1924 when 1200 years of Islamic rule ended in that area, and non-muslims no longer lived under apartheid. With the old oppressive laws rescinded, and no able to enforce peace, a violent mess ensued, with bot…

>The origin of "the problem" is 1920/1924 when 1200 years of Islamic rule ended in that area, and non-muslims no longer lived under apartheid The missing piece here is that happened because of the European support and implementation of Jewish settlement. The zionists had actually initially considered Argentina, which had constitutional provisions that would have lended well to establishing a Jewish community there, p…

Interesting.

I provided three facts and an opinion that 1200 years of rule created a mindset that would not allow for the independence of those considered "inferior". You also realize that this 1200 year rule was based on violent conquest, slavery, ethnic cleaning, genocide, and apartheid.

Your response is all conjecture and assumptions. There is no reason that there could not have been peace with two states in 1947.

Other homelands, such as as Argentina and Uganda, were considered backups, not as primaries, in case things did not go well and Jews needed a safe haven. This is because living in the mideast under Muslim rule for Jews is not safe. It has not been safe for 1200 years.

And I agree, if the Arabs won, there would not be bloodshed in the mideast because there would be no Jews left, so I will give you that. I would not call it "happier".

Tell me, if the United States falls apart (not so unlikely), and numerous states formed, would you think it is a good idea for the Native Americans to leave for another part of the world because a bunch of racists here in the US could not accept them having a state of their own and would declare war on them ?

Of course not, Native Americans were here long before Europeans came and brutally ruled over them.

The Jews were in the middle east before Islam came into being, and were brutally oppressed by those that follow Islam for 1200 years.

Re: US-backed Israeli company's spyware used to target European journalists

#239

Post by FridayoLeary »

guelo wrote: post #213
breppp wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, the fact that companies sell offensive cyber warfare software to governments is not new, and that specific company isn't either. There's also nothing inherently wrong with selling intelligence tools to a western government, Italy is not Iran or Zambia. And fighting terror or crime using software is valid. The only thing that surprises me is that a western government might attack journalists, and what I'd lik…

> fighting terror using software is valid Only if you want to live in an Israeli-type society where a certain group is inherently suspicious and have no rights. Americans should be repulsed by that. That's why I don't buy the judeo-christian propaganda about how our values are the same. The western values are justice and due process and "all men are created equal", zionist values are "we are god's chosen", no holds b…

> where a certain group is inherently suspicious and have no rights

what group? If you mean arabs, israeli arabs enjoy full citizenship rights.

> zionist values are "we are god's chosen", no holds barred "war on terror" with no due process, invoking religous amalek to commit genocide.

That's some very specific claims. I challenge you to show any evidence for this.

>Zionist values have been forced onto the west over the last 30 years as Israel tries to rope us into more middle eastern wars, but they don't derive from western enlightenment philosophy.

??? What?

Re: US-backed Israeli company's spyware used to target European journalists

#240

Post by kennywinker »

ty6853 wrote: post #225
kennywinker wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

JFC this is a really intensely bad line of thinking. This is literally the kind of zero-sum win or lose kill or be killed thinking that lead to the holocaust. There are so so so many other possible way to achieve peace that don’t involve the death of millions. You very well might have applied this same logic to ireland during the troubles, and advocated for the extermination of all irish-Catholics or all irish-Protes…

If the Arabs had just wiped out the settlers establishing Der Judenstaat near the turn of the 20th century, I have a real hard time coming to a calculus where it wouldn't have been more peaceful death tally than where we are at now.

This assumes wrongly that the problem in the region is multiple ethnic / religious groups. That is literal nazi ideology.
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