The Hidden Subversive Message in Gangnam Style • Hacker News Board

Re: The Hidden Subversive Message in Gangnam Style

#31

Post by batista » Fri, Aug 24, 2012, 5:12 AM UTC

Steko wrote: post #29

w1ntermute wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I asked one of my tour guides about this, not knowing anything about the relevance of the video, and she basically echoed a lot of the comments about how it was poking fun at Korean materialism and superficialism. And this has upset many Koreans[0]. The the so-called "Korean wave", or "hallyu", of Korean pop music has flooded all of Asia over the last decade or so. If you're not familiar with K-pop, it consists of…

"Yet all of their attempts to break into the US market have resulted in absolute failure (for a variety of reasons that I won't get into here)" 'Absolute failure' only if your standards are impossibly high. Even without Psy, Kpop was making legitimate inroads in the age of YT. TV appearances, concerts, blips on itunes charts and of course they are all over YT. http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=2NE1%2CSnoop%20D…

>'Absolute failure' only if your standards are impossibly high.

"impossibly high"?

He's talking about it with the standard "breaking into the US market" term in use since the sixties.

What are you describing ("TV appearances, concerts, blips on itunes charts and of course they are all over YT") is not "breaking into the US market", the same things can happen for any obscure artist here and there.

We're talking mainstream chart success. It doesn't have to be on the Led Zeppelin or Clash level, but those guys haven't even reached Air or Daft Punk levels of US success.

Re: The Hidden Subversive Message in Gangnam Style

#32

Post by batista » Fri, Aug 24, 2012, 5:14 AM UTC

TechNewb wrote: post #18

steve8918 wrote: post #13

I've been traveling in Asia, and was in Korea this last week when Gangnam style really took off, at least on my Facebook feed. I asked one of my tour guides about this, not knowing anything about the relevance of the video, and she basically echoed a lot of the comments about how it was poking fun at Korean materialism and superficialism. She said that Korean culture has really shifted in the last few decades. Her gr…

Sounds like America in the 80s.

Only 10x worse.

Re: The Hidden Subversive Message in Gangnam Style

#33

Post by w1ntermute » Fri, Aug 24, 2012, 5:17 AM UTC

Steko wrote: post #29

w1ntermute wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I asked one of my tour guides about this, not knowing anything about the relevance of the video, and she basically echoed a lot of the comments about how it was poking fun at Korean materialism and superficialism. And this has upset many Koreans[0]. The the so-called "Korean wave", or "hallyu", of Korean pop music has flooded all of Asia over the last decade or so. If you're not familiar with K-pop, it consists of…

"Yet all of their attempts to break into the US market have resulted in absolute failure (for a variety of reasons that I won't get into here)" 'Absolute failure' only if your standards are impossibly high. Even without Psy, Kpop was making legitimate inroads in the age of YT. TV appearances, concerts, blips on itunes charts and of course they are all over YT. http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=2NE1%2CSnoop%20D…

I don't know about you, but Snoop Dogg hasn't exactly been at the forefront of American music in a long time. His 2011 album Doggumentary (uggh...) peaked at #8 on the Billboard 200.

And I don't doubt that K-pop has found a faithful following online. However, the internet has enabled the long tail, by allowing people who would otherwise be geographically disparate to create an online community. Even if 1 million Americans listen to K-pop (more than enough for a huge online following), that's less than 1/3 of 1% of the population - far from successful.

As for concerts, that's an area that has been an indisputable failure. Although there have been some in areas with large Asian-American populations (LA, SF, NYC), it's not like they've made inroads among the non-Asian population. In fact, the "SBS K-Pop Festival in LA" was postponed, allegedly due to poor ticket sales. Considering that people were flying in from all over the country for it, that's a pretty shitty move, even by Korean entertainment agency standards.

On the whole, I would say that the internet is a poor gauge of the general popularity of anything. Let me know when K-pop acts start regularly appearing on TV (no, the Letterman appearance by SNSD a few months ago, which they completely bombed, does not count) and radio - that's when you can legitimately claim that K-pop is popular in America.

Re: The Hidden Subversive Message in Gangnam Style

#34

Post by uniclaude » Fri, Aug 24, 2012, 5:39 AM UTC

Steko wrote: post #29

w1ntermute wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I asked one of my tour guides about this, not knowing anything about the relevance of the video, and she basically echoed a lot of the comments about how it was poking fun at Korean materialism and superficialism. And this has upset many Koreans[0]. The the so-called "Korean wave", or "hallyu", of Korean pop music has flooded all of Asia over the last decade or so. If you're not familiar with K-pop, it consists of…

"Yet all of their attempts to break into the US market have resulted in absolute failure (for a variety of reasons that I won't get into here)" 'Absolute failure' only if your standards are impossibly high. Even without Psy, Kpop was making legitimate inroads in the age of YT. TV appearances, concerts, blips on itunes charts and of course they are all over YT. http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=2NE1%2CSnoop%20D…

Your google insights link points to graphs regarding Hawaii. How exactly is this region relevant to this conversation (or to your point)? If you apply the searches to the US[1], the results are less surprising.

Please describe by which metric do you mean impossibly high. Billboard rankings?

[1]:http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=2NE1%2CSnoop%20Dogg...

Re: The Hidden Subversive Message in Gangnam Style

#35

Post by Steko » Fri, Aug 24, 2012, 5:43 AM UTC

batista wrote: post #31

Steko wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Yet all of their attempts to break into the US market have resulted in absolute failure (for a variety of reasons that I won't get into here)" 'Absolute failure' only if your standards are impossibly high. Even without Psy, Kpop was making legitimate inroads in the age of YT. TV appearances, concerts, blips on itunes charts and of course they are all over YT. http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=2NE1%2CSnoop%20D…

> 'Absolute failure' only if your standards are impossibly high. "impossibly high"? He's talking about it with the standard "breaking into the US market" term in use since the sixties. What are you describing ("TV appearances, concerts, blips on itunes charts and of course they are all over YT") is not "breaking into the US market", the same things can happen for any obscure artist here and there. We're talking mains…

The way obscure artists break into the us market is by signing with a US label.

This is flatly not an option for Kpop artists signed with a Korean label.

The British invasion in the 60's happened because DJ's actually played music requested by listeners, something that just doesn't happen on radio today.

The music ecosystem in America is still heavily tied to the US labels. It's moving away from radio and physical media but those are still 2 of the 4 biggest sources and huge uphill battles for a Korean artist signed to a Korean label. They have no special advantage on itunes, it's probably a bit of an uphill fight but not as bad as CDs in Wal-Mart where the outcome has already been determined. YT is where they shine of course but there's little money in it now.

Re: The Hidden Subversive Message in Gangnam Style

#36

Post by w1ntermute » Fri, Aug 24, 2012, 5:48 AM UTC

uniclaude wrote: post #34

Steko wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Yet all of their attempts to break into the US market have resulted in absolute failure (for a variety of reasons that I won't get into here)" 'Absolute failure' only if your standards are impossibly high. Even without Psy, Kpop was making legitimate inroads in the age of YT. TV appearances, concerts, blips on itunes charts and of course they are all over YT. http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=2NE1%2CSnoop%20D…

Your google insights link points to graphs regarding Hawaii. How exactly is this region relevant to this conversation (or to your point)? If you apply the searches to the US[1], the results are less surprising. Please describe by which metric do you mean impossibly high. Billboard rankings? [1]: http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=2NE1%2CSnoop%20Dogg...

I didn't notice that it was restricted to Hawaii. That definitely invalidates the results, since Hawaii has more Asians than whites, and Asian-Americans are quite keen on K-pop in a way that Americans at large are not.

Re: The Hidden Subversive Message in Gangnam Style

#37

Post by Steko » Fri, Aug 24, 2012, 5:49 AM UTC

uniclaude wrote: post #34

Steko wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Yet all of their attempts to break into the US market have resulted in absolute failure (for a variety of reasons that I won't get into here)" 'Absolute failure' only if your standards are impossibly high. Even without Psy, Kpop was making legitimate inroads in the age of YT. TV appearances, concerts, blips on itunes charts and of course they are all over YT. http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=2NE1%2CSnoop%20D…

Your google insights link points to graphs regarding Hawaii. How exactly is this region relevant to this conversation (or to your point)? If you apply the searches to the US[1], the results are less surprising. Please describe by which metric do you mean impossibly high. Billboard rankings? [1]: http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=2NE1%2CSnoop%20Dogg...

"Please describe by which metric do you mean impossibly high. Billboard rankings?"

What were the Billboard expectations for Kpop in 2011? If your expectations were "about the same as in 2010" then they were drastically exceeded.

Were the expectations that they would "dominate the charts"? Then I will say your expectations were impossibly high.

"Your google insights link points to graphs regarding Hawaii. How exactly is this region relevant to this conversation (or to your point)? "

You can repeat the thing in New York, New Jersey, California, many major metro areas, etc. The point is not that they are more popular then Snoop Dogg or that Snoop Dogg if the biggest artist in the US. The point was that if you go back more then say 18 months you don't really get much of anything for any Kpop artists ever.

By those standards being as popular as someone who is a household name in the US should be viewed as a huge success, not absolute failure.

Re: The Hidden Subversive Message in Gangnam Style

#38

Post by w1ntermute » Fri, Aug 24, 2012, 5:59 AM UTC

Steko wrote: post #35

batista wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 'Absolute failure' only if your standards are impossibly high. "impossibly high"? He's talking about it with the standard "breaking into the US market" term in use since the sixties. What are you describing ("TV appearances, concerts, blips on itunes charts and of course they are all over YT") is not "breaking into the US market", the same things can happen for any obscure artist here and there. We're talking mains…

The way obscure artists break into the us market is by signing with a US label. This is flatly not an option for Kpop artists signed with a Korean label. The British invasion in the 60's happened because DJ's actually played music requested by listeners, something that just doesn't happen on radio today. The music ecosystem in America is still heavily tied to the US labels. It's moving away from radio and physical me…

> The way obscure artists break into the us market is by signing with a US label.

> This is flatly not an option for Kpop artists signed with a Korean label.

This is completely wrong. Korean artists who've made a play for the US market have signed with US labels. For example, the Wonder Girls are managed by JYP Entertainment in South Korea, DefStar Records in Japan, and by Jonas Records in the US.

Re: The Hidden Subversive Message in Gangnam Style

#39

Post by w1ntermute » Fri, Aug 24, 2012, 6:03 AM UTC

Steko wrote: post #37

uniclaude wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your google insights link points to graphs regarding Hawaii. How exactly is this region relevant to this conversation (or to your point)? If you apply the searches to the US[1], the results are less surprising. Please describe by which metric do you mean impossibly high. Billboard rankings? [1]: http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=2NE1%2CSnoop%20Dogg...

"Please describe by which metric do you mean impossibly high. Billboard rankings?" What were the Billboard expectations for Kpop in 2011? If your expectations were "about the same as in 2010" then they were drastically exceeded. Were the expectations that they would "dominate the charts"? Then I will say your expectations were impossibly high. "Your google insights link points to graphs regarding Hawaii. How exactly…

> You can repeat the thing in New York, New Jersey, California, many major metro areas, etc.

And you will find that in areas without disproportionately large Asian-American populations, they are basically unheard of.

> The point is not that they are more popular then Snoop Dogg or that Snoop Dogg if the biggest artist in the US.

Then why did you even mention Snoop Dogg? How is his popularity relevant at all?

Re: The Hidden Subversive Message in Gangnam Style

#40

Post by Steko » Fri, Aug 24, 2012, 6:09 AM UTC

w1ntermute wrote: post #38

Steko wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way obscure artists break into the us market is by signing with a US label. This is flatly not an option for Kpop artists signed with a Korean label. The British invasion in the 60's happened because DJ's actually played music requested by listeners, something that just doesn't happen on radio today. The music ecosystem in America is still heavily tied to the US labels. It's moving away from radio and physical me…

> The way obscure artists break into the us market is by signing with a US label. > This is flatly not an option for Kpop artists signed with a Korean label. This is completely wrong. Korean artists who've made a play for the US market have signed with US labels. For example, the Wonder Girls are managed by JYP Entertainment in South Korea, DefStar Records in Japan, and by Jonas Records in the US.

Wikipedia indicates Jonas Records may be defunct, it certainly wasn't ever Warner Brothers. SNSD is with Interscope, 2NE1 is signed with Will I Am's label.

If you have to sign with a 2nd tier label because you are basically an indentured servant to the Korean label that's been training you for 6 years your odds of being a huge breakthrough success in the US are going to plummet.